City of Ferndale Planning Commission Meeting 12-18-2024

Good evening, and welcome to the planning commission meeting of Wednesday, December 18. I will start the meeting at 06:34PM. Hello. Roll call.

Newman? Here. Azar? Here. Chair Foster?

Here. Michelle? Here. Grayson? Here.

Subakatani? Here. And council member Polica? Here.

Second. Hi.

Evening, we have on our agenda the consent.

I move to accept the agenda. Second.

Approval of minutes, the consideration of December 4. Have a amendment to those

Move to accept the minutes as amended.

Second.

Motion by Michelle. Second by Brazen. Aye. Call to audience. No one in the audience, continue business.

Consideration of site plan approval for two two four three eight footwork. Office building. I'll start with a summary from our city staff, planner.

Good evening, planning commissioners. This is site plan approval for 22438 Woodward Avenue. So this is located a little bit just a hair outside of downtown, between Ardmore and Academy on the East Side. This is located mid block on that, on that block. So there's an existing building here.

If you've driven by or noticed it the building that's on the northern side is actually a little bit older historical even I believe it has a you know a facade note from. I believe the nineteen twenties. And I do apologize. The TVs are not operational, but we plan to have them in the near future. So you might have to crane your necks a little bit to look at the presentation.

So this northern building is a little bit older. This southern building, I believe, is an expansion, from what I can tell, dated to the fifties and sixties. There is a parking area to the south, here, with the number of spaces. We have a few spaces in the back, so this does a butt up against the alley. So it's pretty typical of a lot of the, blocks on this area where it's bound by a alley, running along the rear.

We have a

few residences behind it, which as of this moment are still zone p 1, but in the near future, will be reverted back to, a residential zoning. The plan is to convert this existing structure, which has been vacant for quite some time. I wanna say, possibly twenty eighteen, twenty nineteen, perhaps. So it's been a number of years, to a medical surgery center with, some ancillary office space. So this is a change in use.

I'll pull up the plans. So in terms of modifications to the site, it's primarily, along the rear, so there's an existing portion of the building that sticks out. It goes nearly to the alley that is being proposed to, be essentially cut off, demolished to make room for some more parking, little more breathing room for the alley. There's a little bit of exterior modification that there's an exterior a stairwell that's existing right now. That is proposed to be enclosed so some modifications on the back.

The addition of bike racks and some trash area here, the removal of an overhead door that's on the back that's facing, some of these residences. So that'll be removed, allow for more streamlined parking access. They also want to remove there's a a parking space, which, the the front lot line's a little funny on this block of wood where it kinda sticks out a little bit from where the buildings are. You can see this along with the view businesses to the south that there's a parking space that kinda sticks out in front of the building. So they're proposing to remove that, and add an ADA van accessible space.

It also has some EV charging, and reorient the main entrance for the surgery center, to face that ADA accessible, space. In terms of elevations, I mean, the side that is facing Woodward, that's the west elevation, removing an existing door and then removing a second existing door. So this one on the bottom right here is going to flip around the corner so that space in the 88 space. This original 1922 door will remain. So this door.

I believe goes directly upstairs to the office space that is in the Second Floor of this portion of the building. This is a view. Let's say you're standing in the alley and you're looking at the building. These are some of the modifications. So anywhere that has been disturbed either had the building chopped off or perhaps the stairwell has been modified or enclosed or the overhead door has been removed.

So those areas are proposed to be- replaced with a block to match the existing building. So I noted in the staff report that CMU course as we know is not a pretty permitted visible material. However it would be matching the existing because it's part of the disturbed areas. I let the applicant speak to that a little more. The photo metric plan, is in conformance.

They have provided the fixtures. They are shielded and angled downward. So those have been provided in the, site plan package as well. In terms of the interior on the First Floor, we have a surgery center and some rooms. So the main entrance, which is proposed to come off the parking lot here, they have an elevator, and, so we have some surgery, area on the First Floor.

And then on the Northern side of the building is team rehab, which I know the, the applicant can speak a little further to that. In terms of the Second Floor, more on the surgery side of the building, more, surgery space. And then on the North side, we do have, some general office. So this is the only portion, the Second Floor on the North Side. It's the only part that's not part of the surgery space, and it's simply, just an extra office suite.

The other waivers that we have, the existing For the proposed a trash waste receptacle area. It's only a three foot tall masonry wall. Partial screening. So I think they are not proposing a dumpster it's rather a series of smaller trash bins. So the planning Commission can accept this as is or the ordinance does require a six foot screen wall on all sides.

They do have the required number of the E V charging stations and a bicycle parking, but they are deficient overall with their parking. So frankly I think this is one of the I guess one of the reasons that we're here. I think if it weren't for the parking waiver this might have been completed. Administrative way. Perhaps we would have had to come here anyway for some of the other landscaping waivers.

But medical has a relatively high off street parking standard of one per each, 250 square feet of floor area, which is 80% of the gross. So they are required with all said and done the 36 spaces. And then for that office component that is nine spaces. They have 20 on-site. So they are requesting a parking reduction request of 25 off street parking spaces.

In terms of, rationale and reasons for that, they are within 500 feet of a public parking lot. That's one of our criteria. And the applicant has proposed a, pretty robust plan to address, some of these parking issues, so I will let them speak to that, when I've concluded. The only other items are there are some deficiencies in, landscaping due to the configuration of the site. So I believe there are seven trees which they are proposing to pay into the, tree fund.

There There is an existing tree on Woodward, but there's, nothing else on-site. And then parking lot screening, which is some sort of either hedge row, that's usually the case or some kind of small wall, to be placed between parking and the right of way. That is all I have at this time. So I've got the potential parking reduction, motion and then the example site plan motion in the packet. At this time, I'd like to invite the applicants up to, speak a little more about the project.

Like, a plug in I can plug in?

So the plug in is a concern, and it can cause issues. So if the commissioner will give me a minute, I'll see if I

can get it loaded up. Around. Yeah. Is there well You've got all of it.

He'll get it up for you.

And there's no there's no jump drive I can pop it into?

That's how I crashed the

I plugged it into your laptop. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Look at that.

Kyle, through the chair. Kyle, could you email that to us as well? Sure. Sure.

It's a it's, like, 35 megabytes or something like that. So

Holy moly.

I I emailed it to to them, and it it emailed the link. So Oh,

I was thinking gigs.

Alright. Hi. I'm Derek Hill. Thank you. So this is about 22438 obviously.

So I'm no stranger to this to this committee. Can you fast forward? You get am I able to click? I can click. Never mind.

Yeah. I would check that.

Okay. If you If you like. Good. Good. So we we've previously purchased the building at 928 East 10 Mile Road.

Used to be this eyesore that was abandoned for about five years and had 10 foot holes in the roof. And this was kind of what we came to with our proposal. And, you know, a couple years and COVID later, we actually finished it and and we moved in in in 2021, and we've been living there for a few years now. I'm very happy with with our building and with Ferndale, and and I think the neighbors appreciate what we've done too. It's a it's a it's a beacon for Ferndale, I feel.

You can see it from the freeway, and and it looks way better than before. So I I present this just to say that, you know, we're very capable of of doing a good job and and doing what we say we're gonna do, in addition that this this building will will come into play later on. So we're talking about 22438 Woodward, which my wife and I, we purchased the other building. She's a vascular surgeon. I'm an orthopedic surgeon, so we share an office there.

We rented out some spaces. Team rehab has a place in the basement, and they're they've overgrown their space now, and my wife has a med spa there. So now we're proposing that we build a surgery center here at 22438 Woodward, and team rehab would also like to rent space again because they're busting at the seams at their other locations. So they would be able to do some overflow patient care, at this location as well. So the problem is we it's a 12,000 square foot building and as Kyle said, if, you know, you take 80% of that, that one space per two fifty square feet for medical or 300, whatever number you wanna call it, you get to somewhere between, you know, around 35 parking spots required.

You had said 45, but in any case, there's there's no room for it. And then if you add landscaping requirements onto it, that's gonna complicate the parking issues even further. If we kinda follow the two fifty to 300 guidelines, we would only be able to occupy less than half of the building. So it's almost like an unusable building with the current requirements, and I think that some variance, should be considered. Currently, there's only 18 to 19 spots available if you follow ADA guidelines and remove that spot that juts into the sidewalk and etcetera.

They took away some of the street parking by adding the bike lane on Woodward, and we have no room anywhere to put spots. There's an alleyway. There's business on the one side, business on the other on the other side. They all have limited parking, and we got Woodward, on the West side. So, again, the landscaping requirement might complicate things, which is why we're asking for the allowance to to deposit to the tree fund.

So this is this is the overhead of the building, and you can see it's pretty tightly packed in there. There's a little bit of parking on the on the bottom part of the the the picture, on the south side of the building. So these are some of our proposed solutions. As Kyle said, we we propose that we'll demolish about a 600 square foot space, on the northeast corner of the building, which would add us about three or four spots, and that would enable us to create an ADA compliant spot, add some EV charging stations, per guidelines. We again, our other building.

We have more eight eight spots more than than the ordinance requires at the other building, so we would be able to take some of those spaces and utilize them for employees or patients. It's about a mile and a half as the crow flies away and two miles if you drive it, to get from one building to the other. And so we could, again, take some of those spots and we would provide a shuttle service for our our employees and patients for for those spots. We would continue to provide rideshare transportation to patients, which I'll explain, and we could rent spaces for our employees to use at the municipal lot, which is less than 500 feet away. And we could even have our shuttle service since it's such a short cycle, our shuttle service could stop by the lot, to to transport, employees or patients.

So in foul weather, even nobody wants to walk two blocks even, the shuttle service would would take care of that. In addition, the smart bus stop is less than 300 feet away from the building, and that could be used by employees or patients or visitors as well. And then Ferndale is very bikeable, so we'll add some biking racks to to to the mix as well. So, again, taking away this this little corner spot here, we could probably get about three or four more spots total. And, again, that would only bring our total to 20 spots.

So no matter what we do with the allotted space, we can't get anywhere near, the the ordinance recommendation or requirement. Again, the shuttle, this is, you know, Google Maps. It's two miles, five minutes. We could easily do a thirty minute every thirty minute cycle with our shuttle, stopping at the municipal lot, right around the corner. We could use it for patients, employees, and we could even bring some business to Ferndale.

Our employees could jump on the bus, go to lunch, hit one of the Woodward spots like Imperial, which is one of my favorites, and, and jump back on to head back to the office after lunch. Again, the municipal lot is less than 500 feet away. It's about a two block walk, five minute walk, and patients or employees could use it, and the, again, the shuttle could stop here. So, as I said, we could do rideshare for our patients, and this is this is something that we actually do. This is just my my credit card ledger from my business, Amex, account that shows, like, all these aren't me taking these Ubers.

We actually do provide free of charge Ubers for our patients who whose families can't get them where they need to be. It's just a service that we provide, and our patients love it, and we would continue to do that. And that would help alleviate some of the parking net deficiencies as well. And we can, you know, we can usually predict the busier days. We can say, you know, Ubers are available this time or we have parking available, so you don't need an Uber or whatever.

And then and then in addition, there's a smart bus stop that's right down the street right in front of, what is that, John k King Books Books North. It's basically the next building over, less than 300 feet away. So, again, that could be used for for patients or employees. So why should we be allowed to this variance and move in? You know, we bring a health care alternative to the people of Ferndale, a place for them to go for their physical therapy that might be closer than than others, bring some walkable or bikable jobs to Ferndale, bring some traffic onto the the Woodward area that's South Of 9 Mile, which I think tends to get less of the attraction than than the North Of 9 Mile.

And we've proven ourselves to be pretty good neighbors looking to contribute to the neighborhood and the surrounding community. And this building has been empty for a while, as Kyle mentioned, so we could bring that tax revenue to Ferndale as well just as we did at our other building, much to our chagrin. That's it. Anybody have any questions?

Appreciate your presentation. So this evening, we're looking at the site plan, and, waivers at the and as how outlined, some waivers that are required, as the including the parking waiver, a tree waiver, and Case receptacle. And I believe that this would have been able to have been approved by staff had that not been for those waiver. I was seeing a change in use. So, my first question actually, if you wouldn't mind stepping back up here, is, to maybe talk about your current operations and your parking and, you know, you said you have eight how's your parking lot kind of on a normal day?

And I don't know that will exactly translate, but, might be helpful for us to kinda identify. Because you had mentioned that, you know, based on the requirements, and the size of the building was available.

Yeah. Yeah.

If You could just give us a little bit of context of what you currently

we're we're never full.

There's there's always spots. People are are in and out pretty quickly, and that's even with, you know, two busy practices that she and I basically flip flop. So if she's there, I'm in the OR. If I'm in the office, then she's in the OR. So we kind of take turns with seeing patients.

And I think team rehab is even at capacity there, patient wise, and they don't usually have problems finding spots either. I've never seen a lot totally full. I can't speak to the number that's available at any good time, but I I can say there's easily at least five spaces always.

And then how many, staff do you expect to have at this location?

It's it's a pretty a a pretty small number. So let's say for an OR, you would probably have a scrub tech, a nurse working in the OR, a nurse that's that's, at the station, and then one or two nurses in the pre op and post op areas. I I would guess 10 maybe. And then team rehab, you know, would have like a a PT and a PTA, a p a physical therapist and then an assistant physical therapist or maybe double that. But I would say 10 to 15 employees in the building at any given time if I had to guess.

Thank you.

And I think we looked up and at one point, there were 30 people that were working at the printing company, which I don't know how that worked. But

And the 15 staff and then how many patients do you think would be in the building?

Hard to say. Two or three in physical therapy and then three or four in the ORs because, you know, you have to obviously rotate them rotate them in and out.

I had a question for you. Just, Derek had mentioned the discrepancy in his account versus your account for the, required amount of parking. Can you just speak to that maybe?

Yeah. So, I mean, part of the discrepancy, I think, is our 80% rule. So was that in the slideshow?

Yeah. Yeah.

It potentially be, like, nearly 9,000 square foot medical and $252,500 per office each require, a little bit

Yeah. So the medical is slightly higher at $2.50, and then the office is 300. So I took the total gross and, you know, took the 80% portion, and then I divided that by the by the parking requirements for each of them. So that's what I came up with. You know, we do have the, the ordinance that was adopted on Monday, which has, slightly different counts.

So that speaks to usable floor area, which, excludes a lot of things like hallways, utility closets, bathrooms, and that actually goes to 400 instead of this, two fifty for medical. It does have a provision where you do have to account for employees, So there is a little bit there too in terms of the new parking manual. But overall, it is a, you know, lesser, requirement than what we have in front of us tonight.

That was, adopted by council on Monday. So that would be next Monday for us.

I believe so. Yes.

And then just a verification, I believe that our current ordinance, this use would be exempt for parking if it was in the CBD clubhouse, just north of this location. Is that correct?

Yeah. It's, I think there's one, maybe two blocks that are between this and being in CBD. So it is a it's it is close, but, no, it is not zone CBD. If it was CBD, it would be parking exempt.

Any other questions or comments on the parking?

Yes. Through the chair. So follow my my logic here. Next door to the south is Capitol Carpet. Where do they park?

Can you South?

To the south is actually Rite Aid, and that's what I was gonna get to. But Rite Aid is now closed. That parking lot right on the corner is actually Rite Aid's. But I don't know if Rite Aid is leasing that space from Capital Carpet, or does Rite Aid own that lot? And so whatever business goes into Rite Aid automatically gets that parking.

My understanding and do you show this visually on the screen if everyone wants to see Yeah. Property here in red. This building immediately abutting the parking area is Capitol Carpet, and then there's a parking, here on the end that faces Academy. And I think one might assume that it this is Capital's, Carpet's parking, but I believe you are correct in that this actually belongs to Rite Aid across which is down here across the street. Rite Aid also owns this, triangular piece here.

So I do believe that, you know, if it

owned by Rite Aid or owned by the person that owns the Rite Aid building, or is that being leased to Rite Aid?

I can see what I can find out very quickly.

Because if it's being leased to Rite Aid, that means that at some point, that agreement is no law is null and void, and maybe there's an opportunity for additional parking.

Typically, if we had approved them in the past, we typically require that it's, like, deed restricted, so it might not actually change in ownership. So we would have to look, I think because we typically since we typically don't actually try to make all of our decisions based on just what business is moving in because it can come and go, and parking lots and buildings are much longer, tenured. So what we typically would do is, like so it would just kinda define on what we require.

We

probably have to look into those. Just to I wanna make sure that was

So according to Oakland County Gateway, which has data from the county, I can't say it's a % accurate at all times, but it does have the same property owner as the Rite Aid building. The Rite Aid. Okay. This this 0 6 Penn property does have the same property owner as the Rite Aid

property. Okay.

I'm sorry. Go

ahead. For the for the folks at home.

So kind of along those lines, I did reach out to the owners of the Tim Hortons property, and they're proposing some El Car Wash installation there that, I guess, hasn't been approved yet. But they said that they are still working on it, and they haven't give up given up their plans. I was gonna propose leasing space from theirs, but according to the plans they put out, they've used every millimeter of their property. So if that ever doesn't go through, then that would be an option possibly also.

That's a long way, so that's two blocks.

Or, I mean, if we're proposing walking two blocks to get to the to the, For an orthopedic? Not for patients, for employees. I'm not yeah. For for employees to park.

Yeah. Absolutely. Yep. And I have one other question, but it's not parking related, so I'll wait. Non parking.

Yeah. Through, to the chair, is there if we were to allow this with the shuttle and and the other means, aside from parking spaces, Is there, like, an enforcement mechanism?

I guess this would be

to Kyle. Right? Or do we basically give approval and then just cross our fingers that they live up to their, promises?

I mean, we can definitely make a you know, it would be a condition as part of the site plan approval. We can explore some kind of, you know, it would be a shared parking agreement exactly, but some sort of agreement that could be reviewed by the city attorney Just to- you know insure mandatory shuttle service or something like that. So I don't have a concrete answer for you- whites if I'm directed to I can definitely explore that. As long as the applicant is willing to, you know, make that official.

Yeah. Yeah. I wouldn't have a problem with that. It's to our benefit. I mean, if people can't park there because it's full, then then obviously that would be a bad thing for for our patients.

So

Right on.

We're gonna make it we're gonna make it work however we have to.

Sure. Kind of indirectly related, in the packet, we had a question about, can you describe the process? Like, if a patient's coming in, do they have someone who's driving them? Is that person waiting somewhere? Is it outpatient?

What's the what's the duration, or what's the expected, process if someone has a a vehicle there?

Some patients can drive themselves. It depends on what they're having done. It would be an outpatient surgery center, so people are generally there for, you know, anywhere from an hour to three or four hours. Sometimes family members wait for them or friends wait for them. Sometimes they drop off and leave.

It it's variable.

Is it would you expect then if you're doing a shuttle that the both both parties, the driver and the patient, might come to the other location and be shuttled over, or would you expect that they would drive right to this location? There's

different ways you we that each individual could do it. The person could drop them off and then park in the other lot, have the shuttle bring them back while they're waiting for person to have surgery. They could both be dropped off.

But regardless, all this information would be discussed with the patient prior to

Yeah.

And we're very big on patient education, and and we have we have two surgery schedulers who are excellent who, you know, you have to give lots and lots of information about this hospital or that surgery center or whatever. So, yeah, we have a pretty good system.

I'm I'm through the chair. So I'm looking at a, a Google maps photo and- as of August 2024. In this image there's like six cars that are parked. In your space so you may want to consider if people are parking there on a regular basis, you may wanna consider putting signs up that it's parking just for your facility. Because I think there's a lot of people that because it's been empty for so long, it just made it a habit of parking there.

Yeah. I agree.

And that's very possible that it could be Rite Aid people. And now that Rite Aid is closed, you're not gonna see that. But I that's why I kinda asked about the Capitol Carpet where where they were parking.

Yeah. And if and if we can find out the owner of the so Capital Carpet is still open?

Yes. Yes.

So we could find out from the owner of the the Rite Aid building as I reached out to the El Car Wash people if they would be willing to work out some kind of parking spot lease agreement. But if they're gonna move a business in there, I'm assuming that they're gonna need every space possible.

Awesome parking. Have any questions on, landscaping?

This is, like, tertiary tertiarily related. Is there still a giant radio tower on top of

this building? That was my question. Is there?

So that'll be removed for this operation? Okay. Oh, excellent.

Good question.

Question on the waste receptive world.

Yeah.

Something on that, Scott.

I do have a comment. Like, a lot of our waste ends up being picked up within the building. We have people who come regularly and pick up receptacles of medical waste. So it does doesn't generate as much regular waste as you would think.

So the one concern is that and, you know, typically, we have it screened from residents. Ali behind you, but then there's I know. You're here. There's some parking.

The the parking lot is actually fenced in, so you can't leave the parking lot through the alley. Yeah.

Which that fence is coming down. Okay. So there'll be it's a one the idea is to make it one way coming off of Woodward and then exiting out the alley going either left or right. So that fence is coming out of there. That guardrail's coming out of there.

And I actually after we submitted this, I actually and I got Kyle's report. I said, well, wait a minute. I have probably enough width there that actually could do a trash enclosure in that same location where I'm showing those bins. So my own office in Royal Oak, we have a narrow the narrowest dumpster you can get, and they pull it out every however many days they come. They dump it and they push it right back into the enclosure.

And it actually fits within that area, and I have some photos of the one I current at my office that would suffice to screen it, put the gates on the front of it facing the alley.

Facing the alley. And would a, a truck be able to come and then

Yeah. So they pull up. So what happens is they pull up from the South. From the parking lot. From the parking lot, basically.

Oh, no. They would actually come up the alley from the South Off Academy, I think, is that street. Right? They'd come up no different than the dumpsters that are currently there, which aren't screened at all. They're just kind of floating in the alley.

What they do is they come up, the truck comes up, they pull the dumpster out, dump it, and then push it back, and then close the gates. So I actually have photos to show you how that how it works in my app.

I guess my concern is or, I mean, my comment to that would be that if it's still being accessed by the trucks on the alley, you're not actually screening residential.

Yeah. And That's fine.

I was looking at at this in in the half wall. I actually appreciate lower high wall there because of the parking along the alley. Parking was here. If you got drive

This one.

Here's your z.

That's the name of

the box.

You can see

the one that, you have is in front of the

Yeah. And through the chair, I mean, if this is fully enclosed, that does include a gate with a a solid front. So the gate would act as screening additionally.

Yeah. I I was actually saying I appreciate the short wall and and the trash cans there because of the view of active alley. If you got parking back there, you got people coming around the corner being able to see around that corner and over that wall. Right. Whereas if you got an enclosure that's six feet high, that's where it'll kinda blocks your view.

So with it being an active alley, especially with parking, I'll call across there. I think it's actually a benefit having that shorter wall there.

And, I'll talk about the landscaping for a second. The reason why we didn't and Kyle asked me this when we first sat down on this project, he said, why don't you just lose a parking space? So you can put some landscaping where our current ADA van accessible is. And I said, okay, except we're going to lose a parking space. And that became kind of a critical for us, which is, okay.

I'm gonna put some landscaping in there, but I'm not gonna be able to but now I'm asking for more of a waiver than if I don't handle landscaping. So that's kind of where that came from or where our discussion went. Could I could I create a, you know, three foot high screen wall to screen the car? Sure. Absolutely, I could.

I have enough dimension to shift all that to at least get a screen wall if that's if that's what the of

the southeast corner of that parking lot. Southwest.

South. It'd be The grayed out?

Along Woodward. Sorry. Thank you.

Yeah. The screen the screen will all occur at the right along Woodward there. If if if we if that's what the commission thinks is a better approach than seeing the side of a car, for instance. But getting landscaping there means I'm living eliminating a parking space, which I don't think, in our opinion, is not is not a wise move.

Look. So sorry. Before moving on to that screening and landscaping, I want to see if, to follow-up on the conversation on fresh receptacles. So I think Michelle made a a good point on the call and on the alley. But I do want to just see if there's a way to address receptacles from that alley and the adjacent residences?

Could there be a way to do so? Like, how is it picked up when they're in the bins like that? Similar to

They're similar to a a dumpster where they just pull them out, they dump them, they pull the bins back. It's so different than at your house how they do it.

So they so we could extend the wall to the north just to screen those in a bit?

You could. Yeah. No. You could. Yeah.

I mean, they're gonna have to pull them out anyway, so it doesn't matter if they're gonna pull them to the north or they're gonna pull them to the east. So, yeah, it it could absolutely, you know, could work that way. My my thought was I can get, like, five of those 90 gallon green bins in that location. And based on what Derek's saying with regards to medical waste is being handled separately, all this is is kind of general office waste. So, with the size of this building, we felt that five bins should be more than enough to handle that.

And, again, I don't know how often pickups are, but you can schedule those accordingly if you find that, listen, we're generating too much so they come every day or every other day, right, versus coming, say, once a week.

Have any thoughts or opinions on the Yeah. Agreement that that shorter wall would be color. Please be skeptical. Okay. So then to the west along Woodward, I would agree that, we it's already impervious.

It's, pavement. We're not increasing that for parking, but we have already have, you know, parking reduction. And so we probably wanna keep that parking space rather than putting it in skipping. But I think that screening that from Woodward would be an improvement to the visual along there.

My question would be, does that make accessing the handicap spot or the accessible space more difficult if you add something there rather than leaving it open and easy to pull into from kind of a tight right turn?

We would share from how it's drawn is the the access space for the van, it would be directly adjacent to the screening wall. Right? And then the parking is on the other side?

That wouldn't change. So that's an eight foot wide, area that is hatched and then an eight foot van accessible space. All that is just gonna would shift a foot to the east to get that screen wall in. So it doesn't affect the necessary to pull in any different than it currently is or how it's shown. It just it just modifies it slightly.

So

Right. So I guess my my question was really that that the car is not parking alongside

the wall.

Right? So the the presence of a screening wall shouldn't impede getting in

and out

of a vehicle.

Yeah. We're required, when we do those to the hatched area is has to be on the passenger side of the car versus the driver side of

the car. Mhmm.

Yep. Yep.

So so that allows a car to overlap that hatched area to then get into that space.

Except if we put a wall.

It still won't affect it's still gonna be eight and eight regardless. So it it it's it's just I got enough flexibility there to

show you. I was you said hatched. I was thinking of the the crossed out. Sorry. Yeah.

No. No. No. Right.

Kyle, can you speak to that space that is currently a parking space but looks to be in the right of way?

Sure. It definitely, made us scratch our heads upstairs. And you can see might be able to see it on the staff reports. So, you know, you always gotta take these property boundaries from Oakland County Gateway with a grain of salt, like, the dimensionally how the building, like, the box, so to speak, is correct, but where it sits on the map is not a %. But this is generally correct.

So you can see how it's got the the the darker asphalt of this parking lot, how it sticks out further. My understanding is that little stick out is actually the property line. So from what I can tell, all these buildings actually have a a few feet of a setback, whereas Woodward, of course, typically, everything's at the lot line. So this is a little unusual. You can see how this parking lot sticks out a little bit.

So they actually have an ADA space that sits here. So, you know, I I would imagine if you walk by and you saw a car in that spot, it would probably look a little funny. It would be sitting in front of the buildings a little bit. I believe, honey baked ham has a similar situation too, but that's just outside of the, the edge of this image. I did speak to, the DPW director about his thoughts.

He recommended more so just treating is as if it's not there and not utilizing that area because I considered potentially that could be a landscape area that would sit out front, but he was concerned in terms of, like, maintenance and snow removal and things like that. And he also considered in the future as we, you know, you know, revisit Woodward in various forms in the future, he preferred, you know, kind of like a clean visual line along the buildings.

Thank you. That's a, helpful information. And then, while you're up here and talking about the right of way, in terms of the trees that are along, I believe that's within more of our purview and wanted to add, like, another tree building. Would that be on the city? Or

So that would be some kind of partnership. You know, obviously, this is a little more tricky because it's all hardscape out there. If they had a completely grass frontage, I think that would be a much, much simpler process. So I can't guarantee how easy that would be. Typically, things like this, it would be the applicant would be paying for it, which I mean they're proposing to do payment in lieu anyway, and then DPW would do it.

I'm less familiar with how they plant trees on Woodward than if this was some other area of the city where this was just open grass. So I can't explore that issue. I I can't guarantee, like, what the process looks like or what the cost is. Yeah.

We we would have to get approval through MDOT. MDOT determines what goes from sidewalk to sidewalk across Woodward. So that's I understand.

Another factor.

Opportunity, to increase our tree scape along Woodward and 9, and it's fairly sparse. And I think this is a good opportunity. And this is, oh, an instance where we, you know, require some additional landscaping. So I would I would like to see I know it might be a little bit difficult. I don't know.

In terms of timeline, I think that's something that can be open. I'm talking to you a while.

I mean, if the

if the applicant's paying into the fund, then it could just be the onus would be on the city to continue that.

Yeah. I I would suggest that you replace the two trees that are there because those really are not boulevard trees that are there. They're they're decorative. You put along the side of a building. You don't plant them in a you know, in right aways.

So we've talked about additional screening of the waste along the alley to the east, a screen wall along Woodward for the parking, and then discussion on the trees along Woodward. Are there any further questions?

The the CMU, I just wanted to touch on that real quick. So, you know, again, this is if you're standing in the alley and looking at it. This is all the disturbed areas, but it is matching the existing rear of the site. So I just wanted to be, very clear about that. So it's really only on this portion that's facing the alley because that's where the majority of the, modifications are.

There is a tiny bit here on the like, this is if you're standing with your back to Capitol Carpet and looking at the building. So due to the modification of removing a window for the new door, there's also a tiny bit here.

Whole building?

And that would be matching the the existing block on-site, side and the back.

Oh, black.

And the chair, what what what color are you painting the building that I see was gonna be black?

It is. It it is.

It's been So the yeah. The I think the front's staying the same, and then there's, you know, additional additional, black coloring on the side and the back according to the elevations.

Showing this is just showing us the scene.

He's just showing,

yes, the material.

That's the raw picture of the existing. Anything else? Well, anything else for you? Well, motion in the packet. We've, identified some potential additions to conditions regarding, for the waste and parking and for trees on the bird.

How do we have to do a separate parking waiver motion? It it just looks like it's part of the site plan approval. Typically, we kinda have two separate ones, though. Or did I just miss that in

the first two minutes? There's two.

Uh-huh. Yeah. There's a I

have a separate motion.

Yeah. So we do have a separate motion. I think the only thing that we've really talked about here, in addition to that was a condition to review options of solidifying the shuttle service.

I can make a motion. In the matter of 22438 Woodward Sidwell Number 2 5 Dash 3 4 Dash 2 0 4 Dash 0 5 7, The planning commission approved the parking reduction request of 25 off street spaces based on plans dated and received 12/10/2024 and discussion at planning commission December eighteenth nineteen, 2024 with the following findings based on section 28 dash two two three, findings in the packet.

Seconded.

Discussion.

Do we wanna amend that to include not just the findings, but also the suggestion for the investigation of additional parking?

Could you work with the city to, explore a parking agreement?

I will accept that friendly amendment.

Second it as well. Yeah. Alright.

Any further discussion on the motion? I'll have a roll call vote.

Sue Baccatani?

Yes.

Brazen?

Yes.

Miss, Moshele? Yes. Azar?

Yes.

Newman? Yes. Councilman Polica? Yes. And Chair Foster?

Need to enter read my photo?

Sorry. We would need to entertain our motion on the second.

Yeah. Through the chair, you had mentioned about the trees on Woodward. So were we putting that in here, or is that really on the city to discuss with MDOT?

So I think it would be helpful for us to identify in the motion to make sure that's, doing so along with the the site plan as a kind of a condition of the site plan.

Oh, so the condition

I think we'll say Kyle agrees with that. So

Yeah. Yeah. I I agree. I mean, I think that's something that'd be helpful in the condition as a more directive rather than just, you know, being left deep in the minutes. Yeah.

I

I would suggest that we just talk about all three trees that are on that block from corner to corner if we're gonna have that agreement. Because all all the trees within that block are really not boulevard trees. They're they're they're decorative trees.

Well, Well, if we're gonna put on the motion for this property, I would think that, would leave it to the that section, but, implore staff to look at when we're using the parking funds or the tree

The tree fund.

Tree funds that'll be funded through this development that we use it to.

So would the condition be that the city considers the the tree fund use for replacement of those in the future? I I guess I'm not clear what the condition would be.

It could potentially be that the applicant and city staff work together to, tree in the front of the property or along the right of way along property, incarnation with MDOT. And then to

Yeah. And and through the chair, ultimately, I do think that it's just gonna fall on staff. You know? If it's payment in lieu, I think from the applicant's perspective, they can pay into that. Yeah.

And then, you know, I can work with, DPW and MDOT on that.

Like, potentially, you know, just having them work together in the condition? Already working on demolition. But also directs the staff to be flexibility.

Also through the chair, just I I might not have cut it, but, number seven with the waste, receptacle enclosure. So we're waiving the enclosure, but are we saying anything about placement in in that wall, or is that clear enough to staff and from discussion here?

I think that we would need the finding that we waive requirement of the waste receptacle enclosure, but at a condition that, we want a screening wall to the east of the proposed

Approximately three or four feet. To the north? Correct.

Okay. I'll, through the chair, make a motion and you can help me if I'm not reading those. I move in the matter of 2248 Woodward, Sidwell 2434204057. The planning commission approved the site plan based on plans dated and received 12/10/2024 with the following findings and subject to the following conditions. Findings listed, one through seven, adding finding eight about, the adding a screen wall to the east of the, proposed waste location, a low between three and four feet.

Extending three to four feet to the north.

Extending three to four feet to the north, working with staff to place that. And conditions, one through three with the additional condition number four about, the city working with, MDOT to coordinate replacement of trees with the tree fund that is being paid into by this, with access to the tree fund, that's being supplemented by this project in lieu of, landscape.

Support. That's a motion by Czar, support by Brazen. Okay. So I believe that the screen wall should be a condition rather than binding, so I'd move that to condition eight. Condition four.

Four. Thank you. Okay. Well

Five.

Four, and then we would make condition four five. Okay. Sure. Sure. Two two conditions.

Yes. So if the screen well, it's condition four, and then condition five that the city work with the applicant and I'm not add applicant there to not only replace the existing tree or to add an additional so that the city and I'm not gonna look that out to add in an additional

The understanding of the FM that says no, there's nothing the applicant can do.

Yes.

So if we need to

Sure. Can we just something more general, like, applicant they will work with MDOT regarding existing and potential additional trees?

As or we can just add as permeable by Network. So the addition of a tree and the replacement of the city, the city will work with the applicant in the MDOT. And then just so I have it right, I believe you said that, we had just called condition four would be a screen east of the trash receptacles, extending about three to four feet to the north. And I believe that we also talked about a condition for a screen wall, glass to the parking lot along the

Adjacent to the handicap.

Okay. So, approved by Czar and Brazezinski. Support. Any further discussion on the motion?

Yeah. I I I guess I just wanted to talk about the landscaping. I mean, if the if the applicant's already paying into the landscape fund part of it, so then it's just on our on behalf of the city's directed to then investigate using that that money towards upgrading the landscaping along that part. Right?

Yeah. So I, I would say it'd probably be up to staff if, if for whatever reason we work along with MDOT and they're amended to it, and then it works out that the applicant can put in the tree, then the the tree funds would be my opinion. But we already conditioned with the finding that they're putting in tree funds, so I think it would be the case that they're putting into the tree funds, and then it's just kind of coordination. And the city and MDOT would be the ones working for it.

Yeah. But I

think we give them a little bit of flexibility so that's definitely

Yeah. The the my understanding is that MDOT would work with the city and the property owner to make sure that, you know, a tree isn't gonna directly block the sign, you know, if they put a sign up on the building because it kinda defeats the purpose of putting a sign on if a tree is just gonna block it.

Although, I think that the tree I mean, we talked a lot, and I know that we're in the zoning ordinance amendment and part of what we wanted to accomplish with our zoning ordinance update was to improve our, kind of like landscaping requirements and, identifying that, you know, we want to improve that landscaping for a variety of reasons. And so I would think that, I think that this is a perfect example of a location where we can improve on the city, in providing that tree. So I would implore, you know, us to work to the best of our knowing that I'm not can be.

Through the chair. Something that just popped in my head in looking at accessibility, the applicant is looking to put the van access. I know that the van won't be against the this wall, but the space will be utilized for access into a van or out of a van. Clean that wall up, how does that impact snow removal? I mean, is it gonna end up that a plow is just gonna end up plowing snow into that space or just as bad trying to plow out of it, but because there's this corner, a plow will never get into that space.

So will that space never get properly plowed if you get, you know, a foot of snow?

Understand that it's the, business owner will be required to keep that space accessible, due to its requirements along the so, you know, they might take a snow shovel and whatnot, but if you wanna speak to the ability to have snow removal.

My thought was, what is really the purpose of the of the wall? Is it just to block the view of the cars on a car based Street. It's interesting because,

you know, as as Kyle mentioned, it's about a block or two south of the center. Right? And your the scenario is repeated all the way down and down the block right where you're seeing the edges of cars along there. So I guess in in our zoning ordinance, which I haven't dug too far into this, is is doing a a screen wall like that sort of our intended purpose along the city? Yeah.

Is that is that what we want?

Yes. That is the well, so I don't know all the new zoning of the top of my head yet,

of course.

But, the intention is and what we've had in our zoning ordinances to screen parking. So to for walkability, and to look a little nicer so you're not identifying all the parking and it just

How high is how high is

three so you can

So you'll you'll you'll see the windows all the way up. So SUVs, you'll actually see half of the car. So you're just blocking the tires? I I mean, I just

An aesthetic thing. Right?

I I think through the chair. So just during the meeting, I looked on the other side of Woodward and and, like, the fast food places. They have a grass strip and it's looks like it might be half on their property or not, but there's a little bit of landscaping buffer. So it's not visual. It's not maybe next to parking, but it's not keeping people from seeing cars.

But it does give a separation between cars and and people walking because sometimes people don't park very well or, you know, if if it's not a wall, maybe it's bollards just so somebody doesn't take that as a parking spot. So, I I think the physical separation has probably got some value even if it's not aesthetic. I I don't know that I would start promoting a lot of new walls. I mean, I think Royal Oak has that, upward, you know, more of a intent. But I think in this case, in that short, span and its nearness to the sidewalk without any chance for green space, it's probably appropriate.

It's my thought.

I think there's And

it's gonna be in line with the building. Right? It's not gonna be in line with the current

Property line.

Current property line, which which the the asphalt goes right up to the city sidewalk. So this this buffer wall is basically gonna have, like, three feet of asphalt sticking in front of it.

Through the chair. I think they said they were replacing the asphalt with concrete in the plan. So

Yep. So that's provided here. Oh, it is? Okay. Assisting asphalt paving to be removed, provide new concrete sidewalk.

Us workers within and that right away and that. Permit what

what can

be required. And then to your point about the screening, it so it is to block the cars that is to provide that separation of space. We do require this. Everywhere so this has been on all of our projects- so this is something I I'm very observant of. I would say most people do opt for landscaping so as I see a lot of hedgerows so you probably see many of those.

Over your time here. So this is a little bit different not everybody goes for the wall and then- this is a little unique because I think one of the other important parts is that it does screen headlights. But obviously And

I can sorry sorry to interrupt you. And I can understand headlights, but all of this parking is is headlights to, you know, to the wall. Sure. So it's not like they're pulling in and shining into someone's backyard. I just I I I look at maintenance, you know, over time.

Debris is gonna get collected in that corner. So to me, that's a kind of way, you know, form over function. You know, what is it really benefiting, you know, in the end, if it's gonna be a space where you're not gonna be able to plow, in the wintertime, that you're always gonna be collecting dirt and debris because winds gonna blow right into that corner. So it's just that's all I'm getting to is my concern is is that if we have to apply something in every position every time, we, you know, we're creating maybe what's not expected.

Yeah.

So like, as ours said, it's not just aesthetics. It's also a safety the separation from pedestrian and, and sorry. Go ahead.

I was

gonna say I could I could get behind that. And I would say maybe if we were looking at adding another tree, if it's in front of that screen wall and that screen wall could be like

But Also,

I think, respectfully, that that's probably not the trickiest situation that, like, a snow removal company has seen. So I think that that combined with, you know, it's right by the building that they could get in there or even if the screen wall has a small opening, so it's not, like, connected to the Capitol Carpet Building so that there's, like, some relief for things to go out. I think that

it would be okay. The physics of the snow.

I'm just pointing out what I fear is gonna happen.

Or it could be like putting

it up. It's not like I'm gonna vote no. Certain swords, I'll fall on. This isn't one of them.

Aren't, like, stipulating anything for this wall besides the height. Right? Like, it could even be, like, a decorative wrought iron thing that's, like, lifted up off the ground. Right? So that it's not a solid brick wall.

You know, I think that depending on how they think they can maintain the space, they would have the opportunity to Okay. Have license there.

It says my concern would be that the DP has for no landscaping there. And so I think a masonry wall is what would be expected just because wrought iron wouldn't really serve the purpose of the I

I guess the wrought iron is the wrong word because I'm not picturing post, picturing just like a like a sheet of steel punch outs or something to make it look aesthetically nicer. I don't know. I'm not trying to design from the bench again. But just in terms of something something solid that that does the screening, that screens lights, but just is thinner than a masonry wall to alleviate some or is slightly elevated to allow for things to get pushed underneath as needed.

But I think it is good to bring up the so that we are aware of, you know, why we have a certain place, especially when we don't see them that often. Any further discussion on the motion?

Through the chair, if we do have that screen wall as condition six, I I think we need to strike, finding number five. Just finding number five is waiving the requirement for the screening.

Oh, thank you.

Through the chair. So so that makes sense to remove finding five and, stick with the condition number six. Right? I think that's what we're asking for. Okay.

Yes.

Kyle, any further discussion?

Newman? Yes. Azar? Yes. Michele?

Yes. Brazen?

Yes.

Subhashitani?

Yes.

Councilman Polacco? Yes. Chair Foster?

Yeah. Thank you.

Alright. Next on our agenda, we have administrative.

I do. So first and foremost, the city council voted to adopt the ordinance on Monday's meeting. So, thank you all for your participation. I know it's been quite a process and a journey that we've been on together. There if you recall, the planning commission made a recommendation to allow triplexes and four plexus by right in the R 1 Zoning district.

There was some discussion at the first reading of city council, away from that. So the final draft that we presented, allowed triplex is as a special land use did not allow for plexus again this is just our one. At the meeting on Monday, the City Council did approve the zoning ordinance allowing triplexes and four plexus as a special land use. So to be clear, you know, if anyone were to build a four plex in the R 1 Zoning district, it would go through the full special land use process, which includes parking requirements. It includes stormwater management requirements.

Anybody within 300 feet of that project would get notified in the mail. It also be in the newspaper for those who read the newspaper. And then it would come to the planning commission. There'd be another round of noticing. It would go on to the city council who would do the final, review.

So just wanted to recap that. So it was a interesting conversation on Monday, but I'm very pleased that we have approved it. And, again, thank you all for your, your work.

Yeah. Yeah. It's been a lot of time, and a lot of hard work, so we appreciate

I do have one more thing too. So if you recall, we did, strike food trucks.

Before. Oh, sorry. You're still on the zoning ordinances.

Yeah. So we did strike food trucks from the, zoning ordinance. So, you know that doesn't take away from anything we have now because we don't have anything with food trucks in our current ordinance- is typically handled under the- regulatory side and chapter six or maybe seven. So I think there was a discussion that we're going to revisit this in the near future so, I know my department would like this considered, perhaps in the next couple weeks. We are going down to one meeting a month, so perhaps in January or February.

We are looking to bring that up to one of those meetings, so we would like some additional feedback of what that looks like to from the planning commission, just some direction for staff for how we wanna handle that. I think some of the options we talked about were engaging the food trucks directly and bringing them to the meeting if possible. I don't know if there's any other tours or anything or I think we may have already handled the tour perhaps, for us to get for how the PC would like to handle this. Does it involve trying to contact residents who are adjacent to some of these uses? Any other ideas that come to mind?

Alright. Was your suggestion you mentioned that be to the city count or, planning commission meeting?

Yes. You know, what sort of feedback or direction or people can we bring in for that meeting to help us all to talk about this item?

Through the chair. Well, I know that currently, Michael Leary, manages the licenses for, food trucks. So I think we should include him in the conversation as he can share with us what people have come to the city with regarding them.

And then I think ultimately the intention the big picture there is, with inviting the food trucks, potentially the property owners, or the food trucks, you know, because a property owner may intend to have a food truck on their site, but there may not be a food truck there or for vice versa. It's just to hear input from the different groups that are affected by it. Yeah. As we toured, we saw a variety of different scenarios that that, all brought up different questions amongst the group of us that we would like to just hear from all the people that are involved with it. And and I think it's only right to have input from all the different people involved before we craft something that affects them.

Yeah. I I I agree. I think when that part of this process needs to be let me step step back for a second. So to me, when a food truck goes on to a property that's has a currently established use, that adding a food truck changes the use of that property. So I think anytime that someone wants to put a food truck on a particular piece of property, we need, as a planning commission, determine if that is acceptable.

Some of these gas stations that they're sitting on was not designed to have a food truck operating out of it, you know, twenty four seven. So I think that, to me, needs to be a critical part of this whole process. That's what I have to say about that.

Yeah. Yeah. It's it's really it does come down to the zoning, right, and how how site is being used. Mhmm.

City staff, I think that for everybody, food truck owners to get their perspective, then it might also be nice to hear. I don't know. Just to have a I don't know. To have one side of the have one perspective, it might not be nice to have multiple perspectives, but I also don't wanna make sure that we can have an organized conversation.

Perhaps it's a property owners and food trucks if we can if we wanna invite residents to talk about findings or something.

You read my mind.

And should we also maybe have the conversation as a commission about what we'd like to see so we have a proposal to bring versus making it, hey. Oh. How do you want us to leg

you know, to make sure

Like, this is what we're thinking. This is this is why based on how this stuff like, yeah. How do you Yeah.

I think

that's going to affect you?

How does that work?

Like, a work session work session to sort of workshop some ideas too. Like, I I did send some thoughts to Roger after my after the tour, but also, I think if we're thinking about sort of the zoning, of our city, if there's areas that like, we talked about parks or something like that, there's something like that that we wanna think about, tail or encourage encourage food truck usage in other parts of the city. You know, maybe that's something, we need to workshop as a group.

Is there a subset of us that would like to, on that, bring a proposal and then at a city council meeting that's right.

City council or planning commission?

They keep saying city council. Planning commission. Thank you.

I mean, I

would this on you.

I would be on board. Okay.

I'm willing to be on board.

So to recap, that's a, discussion meeting, kind of like a workshop for just planning commission. And then

yeah. Not a majority.

Oh, okay. I see.

Yep. So workshop first and then potentially,

planning. Yep.

So not at a meeting, but amongst yourselves. Is that right? Am I understanding this correctly?

City staff, a draft ordinance, will be brought to the planning commission for if, that'll be sort of like a workshop in which we will, bring in owners that are interested specifically to review the the proposal and to so that we can hear, you know, any comments they may have on the proposal. Okay. Discuss as a group. And then identify so so what would be, so then that if then we have a draft added to the ordinance, we would have to have a public hearing, and it would go to city council. And maybe at that, if we kind of make sure that we identify some residents or actually identify areas, like, near some food trucks, so we just, like, let you know this has been a public hearing on the food trucks.

And then that could be the opportunity for residents to speak on that. Okay. And then on the zoning ordinance, we also I there was also a section that was going to be addressed separately on the the tree ordinance. Is that also moving along and we'll at the another time?

Yeah. That's correct. So, I believe a draft ordinance has been created, and it's still going through the channels with the city attorney and the ordinance committee.

Okay. Is the DPW involved in that?

I yeah. I believe so.

Backed at the next meeting. It will be in effect, December 20? Right, Chris? Right there. Yeah.

All mixed up because of that one.

That is correct. So there's some close-up things. We're actually having, like, a final close-up meeting with our consultant tomorrow just to make sure all our ducks in a row. We have to send a notice to the newspaper. Typically, we publish the entire ordinance, you know, whenever we have a new ordinance that goes to the paper, which is not cheap.

But I would imagine for a 98 page document that we will not be publishing the entire thing, rather a reference to it, but we're gonna work out those details.

True.

Is it effective then March 23, or is it effective as of another day?

My understanding is December 23.

Through the chair. This really applies board of council, so I apologize. But, it would be very helpful that once this is been completed and finalized and i's dotted, t's crossed, that a budget be put together to show council if we went over budget with this project because we definitely went over time. But I think a hundred and 20,000 was budgeted or thereabouts. So just need to know Okay.

How much we went over and and where those costs went because I know the council will be very interested in knowing that. Okay. Thank you. Yep.

We can provide that information. So I know some grants were part of the funding for that, which is very helpful, pretty substantial grants, frankly. But, yeah, I will talk to the my director to, get that to you. Thank you.

Any other questions on the zoning wise? Alright. Well, again, thank you for all your hard work. You, Kyle, and the rest of the staff to implement the new zoning wise. So we spend a lot of time and effort on.

So thank you. Anything else from administrators? Any commission items? Well, I would just like to say happy holidays to everyone. It's been a great year, and I look forward to, working with you all in 2025.

Do we have a date for our next meeting? Because we switched to what's the new schedule?

Third Wednesday.

That's what

we did the third Wednesday.

I believe that's January 15. Yes. January 15.

Which is when we, talk about potential changes. Correct?

In our new position of secretary, so keep that in mind.

Thanks, k.

Thank you. Merry Christmas. Happy holidays. Happy Fwanza.

Was Mike Mike Mike not on this whole time? It's on? How did I just turned it on.

It sounded very low.

Yeah. It did sound low. Oh, it's Since pick it up this

I thought ours were just maybe well, if everyone would have been on the set again, I will

and a half.

Well, neither am I So I tapped mine on my piece of paper and

it scared the shit out of me. So I thought mine's

I heard you just fine. I think.

Yeah.

It didn't sound amplified, but I thought it was maybe just as these ones were talking.

Well, hopefully, that's something. It looks like

they picked you up.