City of Ferndale Planning Commission 2-19-2025

Talked about maybe putting on a survey community wide to see what people said. So I think there's a couple conversations. You know, do we wanna regulate? Do we like the different types of permits? The longer you're there, the more you have to do.

You're becoming permanent. And then do we wanna engage the food truck owners and then ideas for how would we engage them or the community on this topic? So with that said, I'll turn it over.

Thank you.

Just, my first question is, are the food trucks operating currently, would if they were permanent in the on the sites that they're on, would they be allowed by code? Are there any of them that are in an area that wouldn't allow a permanent food vendor? So I know gas stations, you can usually get, like, a, you know, like, a pita shop in there or something like that. So that I mean, that must be allowed. And I think the Orchid, obviously, the one on the screen still, it's in it's in the restaurant district.

Is there anything that that wouldn't be allowed like the furniture parking furniture parking lot? If it was if it was a restaurant, it would be allowed. Right? So

Yeah. The Orchid one is different. I think that it's not open to the public. That's only patrons inside, and they're contained to the patio. So that one's a little bit different.

Yeah. The code doesn't really say you can't have a mobile vending, a truck in any location. I would I would encourage that we if we do a code in that manner, that it could be allowed anywhere except residential. Because I don't think we want, you know, mobile vending vehicles, you know, on, you know, Breckenridge or Or maybe only allowed for

a one day permit for a party or something like that. Right?

Yeah. Special use.

Yeah.

They're usually not going on private. I mean, if it was a private event, they're gonna pull in their driveway.

I think what you're talking about is block party. You know, if if the street decides to close off this you know, gets permission to close off the street for a block party, they might wanna truck.

Go to Oh,

those are my

But that I again, I think that would go to special events and that would fall under under Michael.

Yeah. No. But if you pulled up a truck for you're having a birthday party, pull it in your driveway for a birthday thing.

To mister Newman, you asked if some of them would be approved or not. That's hard to say. I guess, in the case of the two gas stations, we'd make a case for site circulation. It doesn't actually work. We don't have measurements.

I mean, we have a a drive aisle. It has to be 24 feet. I don't know if they violate that. They probably do, you know, the Ferndale Foods one probably doesn't violate anything except if I really ran the parking number, are they supposed to have all those parking spaces?

Same with Urban Rest. What's that? Urban Rest probably doesn't violate either. Urban rest probably doesn't? Yeah.

Because they got a a good amount of parking as well. But to the to your point

But in the drive

If they it depends because they sometimes they put them in parking spots, sometimes they put them in the drive, sometimes they put them on the street. So,

it probably most of them probably wouldn't meet the broad, like, things like adequate circulation, you know, broad things. But specific things, you know, other than a drive aisle or a parking space, they probably meet. Yeah. From a But it's those, you know, you go out there and you feel like this doesn't make sense here.

From a

planning commission standpoint, it would be waiving a certain capacity of parking, but making sure that there's egresses maintained or something like that.

Very good.

And I and, yeah, I think it's something that we should look at. But I I also don't wanna make it so there's a whole section of code this deep that people have to, I held my fingers out about an inch, deep to, that For those listening? For for somewhat yeah. I mean, it's exciting thing going on. But I want to keep it relatively simple, because especially since like it's if someone comes in, I don't want them to we don't take our food trucks to Ferndale because they there's a mile of paperwork that we have to do to to get this taken care of.

And so I think, like, for the very, very for, like, very transitory ones, I don't I think that once they're constantly moving or, like, driving up to a office office park, like, in a place where I used to work, there used to occasionally be a food truck that would pull up there for the lunch hour and then pull away. And I don't really I don't I don't think that they really need a whole lot. But if but for people that are parked there, I think that becomes a whole other issue, because they become an accessory. They become a restaurant that's not really a restaurant. And, I mean, and codes exist for a reason.

Codes and bathrooms are required for a reason to protect not just to protect the workers, but to protect the health, safety, and welfare of the residents. So people aren't aren't using the hand sink as a bathroom or or anything like that. So I think that it's something that I think the restrooms at a minimum I think need to be addressed for longer term stays. But the ones that just kind of pull in, serve and pull away, I don't really know if that needs to be as regulated.

The ones that are there for just a day, they've got to just they've got to have all the Oakland County approvals.

Yeah. And I don't I don't think that's really the issue. At least that's when we were going through the, the code and being asked to update it, commissioner Rachel and I, Saba Katani, is that how you say it? Mhmm. We realized that we were way over our head because there were, you're looking at a lot of sites that have been there for a year or more.

And how do you not treat how do you not treat them differently, alright, not treat them differently than a company that just comes in and builds a building and serves food? I you know, for example, the barbecue place has been there since 2016. They're they're like a a brick and mortar building with wheels. But there's no, there's no oversight to make sure that the general public is, is seen to so that there's restrooms. We've witnessed, people urinating because there's no bathrooms, at one of the locations.

You know? The the employee that works in the thing, there's no bathroom there, and they're urinating between a couple of trucks. You you can't operate that way. You know? We don't want that in Ferndale.

How is garbage being handled? You know, if you're there for a day, again, I I don't have any issue with someone being there for a day. But, you know, if you're there for a week or, you know, two months, a year, how are you handling garbage? You know? Is there a set schedule?

Are there dumpsters on-site? You know? Or are you taking it away every day in your car to throw it into someone else's dumpster?

Or or is there an agreement with the property owner that has a bathroom and a dumpster for you to use?

Correct. Yes. You know, the the they're they're operating a a business long term in the city. Again, I have no issue with the, you know, oh, I wanna come for a weekend for, you know, some something that's going on. I, you know, I wanna come for a day, or every every day stop at a different location, you know, in the industrial area.

You know, stay for a couple hours. I don't have a problem with those vehicles. I have a problem with the ones that are there for three months, six months, a year, seven years.

How do you differentiate and track that though? Like, whose responsibility would that be if if you did have a truck, let's say, that on Monday parked in one place and Tuesday parked in another to try to skirt the rule that against permanence?

And currently, there's no there's nothing stopping a property owner from bringing.

Proof. Yeah. If someone is moving around and has a particular route throughout the city and they park in different areas throughout the city, they're still operating as kind of a mobile vendor. They're not setting setting down roots in a certain spot and, I mean, and not and letting that site go to the birds and just Yeah. Become overgrown and what

They're operating as a mobile unit. You know, it's it's mobile vending, but, you know, if you're parked there for months and you're coming in with your, you know, your f one fifty and and, you know, going to work, then leave in the day.

Yeah. The problem is that we have to establish a threshold of when does it change over from mobile to, semi permanent to, and then what regulations we wanna place on them. And so

Yeah. And there's two different levels. Are you gonna have patrons hanging out on-site or not? Is it only grab and go? Because that also then make sure now you've got an access to the restrooms for the public as well.

And how do we differentiate that? Like, how do we

Well, it's I mean, from a site plan review, if their goal is to have public be able to

Seating.

Seat, then you've gotta have access for restrooms.

Yeah. It's if yeah. If you're putting up picnic tables and and allowing people to stay for a period of time, to me, that's no longer mobile vending. It's not walk up, you know, grab a hot dog and and walk away, eat my car, drive away something.

But I mean, is our is it our goal in Ferndale to encourage these businesses to grow and move on to a brick and mortar or grow their companies or that kind of thing. So a certain period of time, I think, is a viable conversation that we want to have and support.

I think a time limit before having to go to I think the I don't want to say the limit, but a time threshold is that makes sense to me, just to make sure people either are providing the correct amenities or or moving around. Mhmm.

Well and and, commissioner Moshely and I chatted a couple weeks ago and, you know, we talked about the different types. The the one day, you know, I don't have any issue with the one day. Then you have, you know, four day. Maybe someone wants to do a Thursday through Sunday. I suggested doing a two to seven day so that if, you know, if they wanna do three days or five days, you know, be there, you know.

And then there's like a renewal. Maybe I wanna do every, you know, once a month or once every six weeks or something, you know, allow them to renew that license. But the minute that you're starting to go, you know, a month or six weeks, you know, ongoing, then it should be aligned with our seasonal patio time, which is March 15 to November 15. You know, we do inspections for patios to make sure that they're, you know, up to code. I I I think we follow the same time and and logic for, food trucks if they wanna be there for an extended period of time and they need to meet certain requirements, providing bathrooms, sanitation spaces, making sure that there's adequate parking, egress.

I think there's two different things that you're talking about. So, like, the time frame of three months, you said. Right? That that was that their threshold that said it should align with that? Did I hear your correct question?

The I think we were saying, like, six weeks max of the renewable week. Yeah.

Well, so I would say that the outdoor patio is for outdoor seating, which is a seasonal thing. Food vending, I don't think is necessarily seasonal unless there is seating that's provided. Because, I mean, we see food trucks that are, you know, year round and people wanting to visit food trucks year round, not necessarily seasonally. Again, seating being differently because if that's part of their business structure

Mhmm.

Is that should we be providing that out like, we're not allowing people that are, restaurants to have vendor or what is it called?

Well, let's say they've got a

Tidewater Cafe.

Let's say we got patio season, but maybe they wanna operate after that, then they can do the weekly. So, like, it should be I

think what councilman Pawlak was saying that it should be aligned with the the permitting process. I think if there's outdoor seating, why how are we going to allow for those food vendors when we're not

So I was just leaving for a from a time period. You know, let's say that they only wanted to operate for four months or five months, that they would then fall into the the March 15 to November 15. You know? So maybe they just wanna do the summer. You know?

But they would fall into that category, that license. If they wanna do all year long, then they fall into the the annual.

Michael. So I I like consistency. I'm really I really, I I I tend to agree with Greg with about the idea of falling into the same line as the sidewalk outdoor sidewalk requirements, just, bat outside patios, just for consistency's sake. But for specifically about what timeline on how how long you can have your permit for, whether it's an annual or two day or whatever, I fall back on how the current ordinance for valet licensing is. And we changed this not that long ago, a couple just a couple years ago, because we only allowed annual permits at one time.

And then because of special events, not specifically like festivals, but when, like, Valentine vodka has a special event at their location, they might wanna have a food truck because they don't have a kitchen. But they also if they're having a wedding at their their location, they wanna be able to have ballet, but it's only for that one time. So we changed the ordinance. So the ordinance allows an annual license so that if you want to be in a specific location for a duration of the year, it expires December 31 of every year. So so you have to renew within thirty days before the expiration to be renewed.

But it also allows, and this is where it's changed, is and this is where I think this is important and not make it complicated because I don't think that it should matter to you as a body whether or not the permit is for a day or two days or three weeks. Because even with the valet license, it allows the city through, the policy through such as right now with the valet is through the city manager's office. And since I process it, basically, it's me, that an applicant can apply for a temporary, but for a valet service that cannot exceed thirty days. So that's how it's defined. But through the applicant and we do the same thing when it comes to parking space reservations so that if you want if you're having an event and you needs to you would like to reserve, like, six spaces, you can rent those in advance and then parking enforcement will secure those parking spaces.

You're you're paying for the service. But they're securing those spaces just for that temporary that fifth one day and so that's all you get. So and this is where I'm talking about consistency is making sure that we're doing it in the same form or style that we're already doing with everything else So that it's just a natural process, not a complicated where one is completely different from the other. So that for someone like me, it's like, I wanna be consistent knowing that each process is done a certain way so that if you're if you're wanting to do an event that involves a food truck, this is the this is the policy. If it has to do with reserving a parking space, this is the policy.

If you're applying for valet service, this is the policy. There's some consistency to them all.

So, Michael, are you suggesting there's a one day, a thirty day, and an annual?

No. I'm saying that it could be the, a temporary license or an annual license. The temporary is determined by the city on whether it's a one day or a seven day, but it can't exceed thirty days Alright. For example. But it gives the city the ability to do its duty and its job because not every event.

Let's say that there's an event at, the Rust Belt Market and it's for three days. They don't want a one day, obviously, if they're gonna have a special event that might

The temperature allowed to flex those.

Yeah. Mhmm. So you wanna be able to have that. In fact, they didn't do it this year, but, the rest of that market did, provide me an application to do a special event during this holiday season that would be for twenty one days. And they wanted to close the alleyway behind them and have food trucks there.

So it would fall under special events, but it's would be an unusual because we never have an a special event that's that long. Mhmm. But we still have the ability through the city policy to have that ability a flexibility to determine a length of time. And so, like, with this, we would still be able to have that length of time, but still say it cannot exceed a certain time. If it's a short term or a, temporary license versus an annual, which could be, you know, January 1 to December 31, or it could be like he's suggesting, and that is the outdoor service.

Can you

get 12 temporaries? Can you

just keep doing that?

Temporary? Could you just keep doing that?

No. That could be part of the thing too, is you could such as what we, are what is it that we're doing? You you can only apply, like you you have a limit of, like, three times per year.

Okay.

Okay. So it

limits the number of Yeah. Applications. Of applications. Okay.

Yeah. Oh, oh, that's right. We're doing that with the nine mile in Woodward Marquis. Mhmm. You're gonna know now.

You're not supposed to know yet. But we're we're looking to get that This

is public.

That getting fixed. We're getting it repaired. Yeah. Okay. But if you want to So similar ones.

Advertise on it, you can only do it a certain amount of times per year so that everybody has a chance to that whether you're a nonprofit or a a local business in Ferndale, to rent that marquee.

No problem. Alright. So I think, I think what you said about, you know, we don't necessarily have to concern ourselves with the temporary nature to the specifics because the city is implementing that. I think what we are concerned about is when it's crossing the threshold and, like, what is it triggering. And I think that knowing how your process works helps us to identify, well, when can we like, when we want to let the public know for and businesses so that they're aware of what's going on.

But when are we gonna start implementing these regulations on them when they're crossing a specific threshold? And, like, how can we trigger that to make sure that then they go through the process so that we can identify the specific, regulations that we want to.

So it sounds like if they apply for an annual license, then that would potentially trigger planning commission review.

I think Michael, gave a good example without doing so, but everybody gets a thirty day or, you know, a temporary. And then the moment they go to renew it, it becomes it becomes something else. Right? You can't apply twice.

Or you or we let them apply, but no more than four times a year.

Okay.

Yeah. Or, you know so because then that would be more of, like, a summertime thing. That's not saying that they're that is still temporary, not a semi permanent or permanent type of situation.

So if I understand what you're saying, so I could come in May and get a thirty day and then renew it for June and then renew it for July and renew it for August. But after the fourth time, then I would have to apply for a year one? For out. Okay.

No. You're out for that year, that one year.

So if

you're gonna do that, you might you probably, based on whatever that fee might be, you might as well apply for a a year

permit. Well, but that also triggers if you're applying for a year, that also triggers a site plan and making sure that they have restrooms. But a temporary wouldn't you know, if they're gonna be there for a month, that wouldn't trigger that. Right.

Right. But I would say that because of all the other I'm sorry. All the other, requirements that we might be asking to be able to have that, that maybe thirty days would be too long? I mean Especially when we're talking about sanitation.

The the Oakland County Health Department does require that an employee restroom access plan is in it. So there is that there is that restroom component to that. I think maybe the only other thing that would maybe for the temporary one is if they wanna have outdoor seating that would probably trigger planning commission review.

Or temporary, you don't get outdoor seating and you only get outdoor seating.

Or city review like they do with the patios.

Maybe. Yeah. Yeah.

I've got a question. It might be a little bit off track, but maybe not. Is, what what is typically found as the agreement with the property owners? Is it a handshake agreement? Do they have some kind of a lease agreement?

What's have we asked or do we know what the

That was one of my questions that I would wanna ask Yeah. The property owner.

With special events, for example, you have the, green space right across the street from Mezcal. That's private property. Whenever a special event that request approval to utilize public space and they want to access that as well, we require them to get the property owner's permission in written a written letter that's sent to me that says that they're approving that. And they agree to also include them in their additional insurance or their liability insurance.

We sort of pulled or has that been a question to some of the other ones that were visited, the business arrangement between whose property they're on and

So currently, there's nothing. But I have full confidence for almost all property owners that if someone came on your property and you didn't want them, you just call the police or ask them to leave. But generally, what are they doing right now? I'm gonna assume somewhere, probably, just a handshake.

Yeah.

You know,

I pay $300 a month, then I can park here. If the if the property owner is smart, they probably require some lease with some insurance in case somebody gets hurt. But it's probably $50.50 on just a handshake or some kind of small lease. But as part of this, we can require it, obviously, as the app can the owner has to sign off on the application or it must be provided or something.

It's also, important to know that, the Ferndale fire department does require, no matter whether you're just there for a day or whether you're there all year, that you have to have a fire code inspection. And it's not just for the suppression system, it's also to for everything else that has to do with anything that's cooking. They require it in a special event, and they are they're frustrated because right now with

all these shooting fire suppression.

With all these mobile trucks that are everywhere and, like, at urban rest, because they don't know when they're coming in, who's coming in, and they're only there overnight. And it's usually during the weekend. Fire fire marshal doesn't know. And but they should be getting an inspection. The inspection permit is valid for a year, but it's a challenge because we really don't know.

So

Mister hours.

Even with this, we're still gonna have that challenge because somebody's gonna have, you know, a food truck that's gonna come in and do a service for them for a day, you know, and it could be at a block party, you know, or it could be just at a local business that's having some kind of event that we're not aware of. So, you know, it's always gonna be a a challenge, but at least we're getting a better control of what is because it's more about public safety than it is about anything else.

And it is a requirement from the Oakland County.

Yes. So

through the chair, something that you you pointed out, like, for example, with urban rest, if, let's say, they have someone come in that wasn't previously certified by the fire department because it's good for a year, If someone were to identify a vehicle like that, there is a fine. Is there not?

I mean Yeah. To, they could see be, told to cease and desist

or Yeah. But there's also a financial fine, I believe. Probably not jail, but, I mean, probably something substantial, $500 or a thousand dollar fine.

I think it's 200. But I'm not it's Really? Yeah. Something like that.

That's nothing. It's a tip pocket.

Alright. Are there any other things that we wanted to discuss prior to our next meeting in which we'll bring in,

Yeah. I think Stakeholders.

I think commissioner Huizar brought up a good one for our next meeting. I would say, what are what are the things that we would wanna know from the food truck vendors or property owners that are questions that we wanna verify?

Well, I I I think, like, for each of them, what are their intentions long term? Is there intentions to always be at that space, or are they, you know, are they looking as this as a stepping stone and they're going to, you know, build a restaurant and this is just the first I mean, I I don't know. You know? So the question, are they here this year, and then next year they're gonna be in some other city?

So the two questions if who do we wanna invite? Do we wanna invite only the food truck owners, or do you wanna invite the food truck owners in the surrounding neighborhood, you know, a hundred feet, 200 feet, some kind

of small thing? Because they're in on it too. I I don't wanna turn into pitchforks and torches. I I think just the the vendors first and then and the property owners. And then maybe a future meeting when we've gathered all of this information, we could then invite neighbors to say, hey.

You know, we understand that there's vendors near you, but I don't wanna get an opportunity for residents and vendors to be arguing with one another because Well, we would this resident, you know, found a paper cup and is just blown out of proportion.

Well, we would control it more, but I hear you. The other thing when doing I've seen a lot. We did it at the town hall and a couple m dot things we've done is where you do it from your phone. You can just log in and people can vote versus having each food truck owner come up and talk about their specific issue because they're gonna be very, you know, very focused on them is to kinda decentralize it and just have questions where you can vote on your phone. You know, do you plan on staying long term?

Do you visit other cities? You know, do you feel like you have adequate space? You know?

How's the fire department process of getting

Yeah.

We could come up with general questions. I would say vote vote now.

Yeah.

And so that way, it's not people becoming all about me, me, me, but it's kind of averaging out

Yeah. Tell them to bring their cell phones so that they can vote.

So that's one way we can do it. Sorry.

Through the chair, one other question because I'm I'm curious that food trucks have been Someone's gonna pretty popular for years. How far have we looked for other other places that have regulated this? I mean, nationwide, you know, the great food truck race. They they do them everywhere. They probably do them in most larger public areas, but I'm just wondering if we gone very far in looking at other ways this is being addressed.

That would be, commissioner Mushele and, councilor Pawlika.

That's zero. Zero zero zero.

So when when we first came up with the food truck ordinance back in, like, 2012 or '14, I researched, neighboring communities and communities across the nation, for similar of course, that was quite a long time ago, and that was when a lot of folks were just,

was it, like or maybe it

was even longer ago than them. I forgot I forget what year it was that we first created regulations, but it was It was

around that. Yeah. It was it was just before I came on account. Maybe. Yeah.

Yeah.

And so leading up to that, we did quite a bit of research at the DDA, through the BizDev Committee. Eleven. That's 12. Or 12. Yeah.

And it's kind of a cost to nations. It was kind of a new thing. So we did do quite a bit of research at that point, but I haven't looked at anything since. So here's some questions. I think we if we ask questions such as, like, where do you typically find the most success operating, What's your, like, customer model, like, ordering at the truck, having seating?

What are the times a day that are most profitable to you? Like, more of, like, a information gathering of, like, their business model, I think, will help us to identify versus, like, would you like this or this? You know? More so, I think, if we focus on data gathering

Yeah. And I know that at the time, what really triggered it was we started seeing mobile vendors come in to the downtown. And a number of business owners were getting concerned that all of a sudden, we're just letting mobile vendors, you know, serve in front of their businesses. And and that's kind of what triggered it. I don't think we have that kind of an issue now.

Yeah. I'm sorry, but we're gonna have to, end the conversation. We're actually gonna have to, I think, end the meeting because we're gonna lose quorum because it's 08:30. And as, stated, Krista or commissioners are embracing do need to leave.

Yeah. I'd like to excuse myself from the meeting.

I think you're right.

Just wanna clarify. It is a $500 fine

from

the fire department.

I don't have anything. As everyone knows, Kyle left. So if you could be a little bit patient with me as I get back in the groove of current planning, but I think

it's We have, like, a new zoning ordinance.

New zoning. Change over

and snap.

Not so easy.

And then, do you have a date for the report to city council on the planning commission annual report?

Do you have a

date that's gonna go to city council? Not yet. We'll just go have to go after the next planning commission meeting. And do you wanna review it at the next or you wanna go straight to city council?

We'll probably wanna review it, make sure that everyone, is okay with our annual report, and then we'll it will go to city council.

Alright. So we can carry it to the next planning commission and then go for

Thank you.

Thank you

for the reminder. Yeah. Alright. Well, with that, I will adjourn tonight's meeting at 08:34PM. Thank you.

Yeah. Thank you. Sorry. I wasn't look watching the clock.

Oh, no. It's

Have a

good night.

Restroom access plan, which is also listed in the Oakland County Health Department manual. The four day or week long type permit has to abide by the same, type of Oakland County Health Department standards. And then, the only questions that, initially, I heard from from some of us was whether, you know, how long is this permit? And if it does become a week long permit, is it renewable? And how many times is it renewable?

And, so that's sort of some consideration for us. And, you know, maybe it's for a certain period up to maybe six weeks, and then after that, you would tell them that, you know, they should apply for the seasonal permit or something like that. So then going on to the patio season permit, this would sort of align with our patio season in Ferndale, which is March 15 through November 15, meets all the documented Oakland County bullet points there. And then with this would come a site plan review so that planning commission would review, the egress of parking. Usually, these are taken up parking spaces or something of that nature.

So we we would review, what parking we are waiving. We would also look at adjacent neighbor impact. We would wanna see that an employee restroom plan is identified whether they're on a property that's got another business and that the food truck has access to that restroom during all hours of operation. If outdoor seating is provided that, the the site plan identifies any site improvements as well as patron access to the restrooms and hand sanitizations. And then whether or not we have some on street adjacent variances with the city planning commission approval.

So there are a few instances of different businesses that really have no available site that do bring in food trucks regularly. And, later on, you'll see I've I've documented the different types of locations throughout the city that have used food trucks if we wanna bring that up and look at them specific. Going on to the next one, the annual vendor permit. This is one where it's essentially a full year long permit, and, this would also require a site plan review, meet all the Oakland County standards, identify the restroom, identify, if there's outdoor seating improvements and that they also have access to restrooms and hand sanitization, same, adjacent street, conversation. And then also with this one, if it's an annual permit, how many times can it get renewed before maybe we look at, you know, if it's for a period of three years, beyond that, does it become an accessory structure on a property?

And then if it does become an accessory structure, what do we require for such an accessory structure or something like that? So that's sort of the initial thoughts, Colonel's there. You want to go on to the next one? So these are these will just roll through the different locations where we currently have, food trucks throughout the city as well as, establishments that regularly bring food trucks on here. 600 Woodward Heights has basically a a vendor that's been an annual usage for over ten years now.

Next slide. 2701 Hilton. This this is a vendor that's been on-site for about a year. Seven seventy one East eight Mile Road. This has a a vendor that's been on-site for about a year.

22500 Woodward, Vendor that's been on-site about a year. 2615 Wolcott, this has had various vendors on-site over the last year or so. 600 West 9 Mile Road, this has had various trucks on-site over a year. 1511 Jarvis Street, This one brings food trucks that are adjacent to the property and utilize the the street. 141 West 9 Mile Road.

This one has got a food truck that has been permanently on property for about, nine months to a year. So those are the various properties throughout Ferndale that we see utilizing this, but obviously, it doesn't you know, there's other people that may be utilizing this. So I guess I'll open it up to the rest of the planning commission for discussion topics and and thinking forward to what we would wanna ask potential property owners or vendors for clarification.

Can I just recap it? Part of it. Some of it. So, as commissioner Marshalli said, this was came from the code. I think, commissioners Suwakitani and councilor Pawlika and I went on a tour when we broke the different sections of the code up, and you two came up with some recommendations.

And then as we wrote the code, wanted to spend more time talking about it, but obviously need to get the code adopted. So we pulled that back and we reserved that section. The observations, couple things, this probably would codify a little bit as, was said that public property, so streets and parks and everything would still be approved by Michael, and those are usually always temporary, right, for a special event or some some short term. This is really related to private. I think the consistent theme in these trucks, there's one consistent theme it seems, and most are going from temporary to permanent.

Right? They start with an intent to be temporary and then it becomes a permanent kind of structure. And then with that is, you know, if you was a real permanent structure, you have to have fire code and bathrooms and parking, and these are kind of circumventing that. Minus that consistency, I'd probably say they're all very different. Some are in extremely tight spaces like the eight mile gas station one.

I don't know that you highlighted that one, did you?

I I did not actually. So

It's gone as of recent. I don't know if it's gone permanently or temporarily. The TACO truck at mobile is or TACO wagon is gone, but they come back sometimes. So some of these are in, like, really tight, you know, all of our gas stations are relatively very small and tight, and the owner can make a little bit extra rent. So they just put them on a corner.

And with that comes and then the mobile at Hilton. With that comes, you know, proximity to a residential. I mean, 15 feet away. You know, they have their issues. There's one on nine mile that has set up in kind of blast music, and I think the police have received complaints from the neighboring home.

They didn't sign up for that. If they were a permanent building, they'd be they're blasting music, it'd be inside the building. You would really hear it. You take the one on other one on eight mile, they become a really permanent structure with with with some flower pots and chairs and tables. And some of us were on the tour, which came up at the wrong time as we pulled up.

Mhmm.

The person had to use the bathroom, but kinda went outside. You don't think about that. We didn't think about that kind of stuff. You know, if you're working at a food truck and you have an eight hour shift, if you're maybe, let's say, the Nacho truck, they might be able to go into the the Foodland? Foodland?

Ferndale Foods. Old school. You can go into Ferndale Foods and probably use the bathroom. But the one near the kitchen cabinet place, I don't know if they can during the day, but this was obviously closed. So that person had no choice but to go in the parking lot.

So as we dig deeper into it, you know, there are real issues with them. I think one of the things when we look through the lens, the four lenses council adopted, one of them was equity. And I do note that almost all of these are minority owned. So, you know, it's perfect for what we want. We wanna nurture that, but at the same time, there are issues with traffic, conflicts with traffic, noise, bathroom facilities.

So that's why we're digging deep into this. I think every city does something different that allows them. I think the conversation here is to talk amongst the group and see, do we wanna regulate them? And, one of the ideas also was to bring in the food truck owners. So I think me and maybe chair Foster talked a couple weeks ago about, you know, if we have the people come in, they're gonna be very specific to exactly what they want.

You know, there should only be a lot of gas stations because I'm at a gas station. So we have to find a way that we can engage them, without making it about just them, but the issues. I think we talked about maybe putting on a survey community wide to see what people said. So I think there's a couple conversations, you know, do we wanna regulate? Do we like the different types of permits?

The longer you're there, the more you have to do. You're becoming permanent. And then do we wanna engage the food truck owners and then ideas for how would we engage them or the community on this topic? So with that said, I'll turn it over.

Thank you.

Just, my first question is, are the food trucks operating currently, would if they were permanent in the on the sites that they're on, would they be allowed by code? Are there any of them that are in an area that wouldn't allow a permanent food vendor? So I know gas stations, you can usually get, like, a, you know, like, a pita shop in there or something like that. So that I mean, that must be allowed, and I think the Orchid, obviously, the one on the screen still, it's in it's in the restaurant district. Is there anything that that wouldn't be allowed like furniture parking furniture parking lot?

If it was if it was a restaurant, it would be allowed. Right?

So Yeah. The Orchid one is different. I think that it's not open to the public. That's only patrons inside, and they're contained to the patio. So that one's a little bit different.

Yeah. The code doesn't really say you can't have a mobile vending, a truck in any location. I would I would encourage that we if we do a code in that manner, that it could be allowed anywhere except residential. Because I don't think we want, you know, mobile vending vehicles, you know, on Breckenridge or Maybe only allowed for

a one day permit for a party or something like that.

Yeah. Special use. Yeah. They're usually not going on private. I mean, if it was a private event, they're gonna pull in their driveway.

I think what you're talking about is block party. You know, if if the street decides to close off this you know, gets permission to close off the street for a block party, they might want a truck.

Go to all

over my

But that I again, I think that would go to special events and that would fall under under Michael.

No. But if you pulled up a truck for you having a birthday party, pull it in your driveway for a birthday thing.

To mister Newman, you asked if some of them would be approved or not. That's hard to say. I guess, in the case of the two gas stations, we'd make a case for site circulation. It doesn't actually work. We don't have measurements.

I mean, we have a a drive out. It has to be 24 feet. I don't know if they violate that. They probably do. You know, the Ferndale Foods one probably doesn't violate anything except if I really ran the parking number, are they supposed to have all those parking spaces?

Same with urban rest. What's that? Urban rest probably doesn't violate either. Urban rest probably doesn't? Yeah.

Because they got a a good amount of parking as well. But to the to your point

But in the drive

If they it depends because they sometimes they put them in parking spots, sometimes they put them in the drive, sometimes they put them on the street. So,

It probably most of them probably wouldn't meet the broad, like, things like adequate circulation, you know, broad things. But specific things, you know, other than a drive aisle or a parking space, they probably meet.

Yeah. From a

But it's those, you know, you go out there and you feel like this doesn't make sense here.

From a planning commission standpoint, it would be waiving a certain capacity of parking, but making sure that there's egresses maintained or something like that.

Very good.

And I and, yeah, I think it's something that we should look at. But I I also don't wanna make it so there's a whole section of code this deep that people have to, I held my fingers out about an inch, deep to, that For those listening? For for somewhat yeah. I mean, it's exciting thing going on. But I want to keep it relatively simple, because especially since like it's if someone comes in, I don't want them to we don't take our food trucks to Ferndale because they there's a mile of paperwork that we have to do to to get this taken care of.

And so I think like for the very, very for like very transitory ones, I don't I think that once they're constantly moving or like driving up to a office office park, like, we in a place where I used to work, there used to occasionally be a food truck that would pull up there for the lunch hour and then pull away. And I don't really I don't I don't think that they really need a whole lot. But if but for people that are parked there, I think that becomes a whole other issue, because they become an accessory. They become a restaurant that's not really a restaurant. And, I mean, and codes exist for a reason.

Codes and bathrooms are required for a reason to protect, not just to protect the workers, but to protect the health, safety, and welfare of the residents. So people aren't aren't using the hand sink as a bathroom or or anything like that. So I think that it's something that I think the restrooms at a minimum I think need to be addressed for longer term stays. But one of the ones that just kind of pull in, serve and pull away, I don't really know if that needs to be as regulated. But

The ones that are there for just a day, they've got to just they've got to have all the Oakland County approvals.

Yeah. And I don't I don't think that's really the issue. At least that's when we were going through the code and being asked to update it, commissioner Rachel and I, Saba Katani, is that how you say it? Mhmm. We realized that we were way over our head because there were you're looking at a lot of sites that have been there for a year or more.

And how do you not treat how do you not treat them differently,

alright,

not treat them differently than a company that just comes in and builds a building and serves food? You know, for example, the barbecue place has been there since 2016. They're they're like a a brick and mortar building with wheels. But there's no, there's no oversight to make sure that the general public is, is seen to so that there's restrooms. We've witnessed, people urinating because there's no bathrooms, at one of the locations.

You know? The the employee that works in the thing, there's no bathroom there, and they're urinating between a couple of trucks. You you can't operate that way. You know? We don't want that in Ferndale.

How is garbage being handled? You know, if you're there for a day again, I I don't have any issue with someone being there for a day. But, you know, if you're there for a week or, you know, two months, a year, how are you handling garbage? You know? Is there a set schedule?

Are there dumpsters on-site? You know? Or are you taking it away every day in your car to throw it into someone else's dumpster?

Or or is there an agreement with the property owner that has a bathroom and a dumpster for you to use

Correct. Yes. You know, the the they're they're operating a a business long term in the city. Again, I have no issue with the, you know, oh, I wanna come for a weekend for, you know, some something that's going on. I, you know, I wanna come for a day, or every every day stop at a different location, you know, in the industrial area.

You know, stay for a couple hours. I don't have a problem with those vehicles. I have a problem with the ones that are there for three months, six months, a year, seven years.

How do you differentiate and track that though? Like, whose responsibility would that be if if you did have a truck, let's say, that on Monday parked in one place and Tuesday parked in another to try to skirt the rule that against permanence?

And currently, there's no there's nothing stopping a property owner from bringing food.

A roof. Yes. If someone's moving around and has a particular route throughout the city and they park in different areas throughout the city, they're still operating as kind of a mobile vendor. They're not setting setting down roots in a certain spot and, I mean, and and letting that site go to the birds and just Yeah. Become overgrown and what

They're operating as a mobile unit. You know, it's it's mobile vending, but, you know, if you're parked there for months and you're coming in with your, you know, your f one fifty and and, you know, going to work, then leave in the day.

Yeah. The problem is that we have to establish a threshold of when does it change over from mobile to, semi permanent to, and then what regulations we wanna place on them. And so

Yeah.

And there's two different levels. Are you gonna have patrons hanging out on-site or not? Is it only grab and go? Because that also then make sure now you've got an access to the restrooms for the public as well.

And how do we differentiate that? Like, how do we

But it's I mean, from a site plan review, if their goal is to have public be able to

Seating.

Seat, then you've gotta have access for the restrooms.

Yeah. It's if yeah. If you're putting up picnic tables and and allowing people to stay for a period of time, to me, that's no longer mobile vending. It's not walk up, grab a hot dog and walk away, eat my car, drive away something.

But I mean, is it our goal in Ferndale to encourage these businesses to grow and move on to a brick and mortar or grow their companies or that kind of thing. So a certain period of time, I think, is a viable conversation that we want to have and support.

I think a time limit before having to go to I think the the I don't wanna say limit, but a time threshold is that makes sense to me, just to make sure people either are providing the correct amenities or or moving around.

Mhmm. Well and and, commissioner Moshely and I chatted a couple weeks ago and, you know, we talked about the different types. The the one day, you know, I don't have any issue with the one day. Then you have, you know, four day. Maybe someone wants to do a Thursday through Sunday.

I suggested doing a two to seven day so that if, you know, if they wanna do three days or five days, you know, be there, you know. And then there's like a renewal. Maybe I wanna do every, you know, once a month or once every six weeks or something. You know, allow them to renew that license. But the minute that you're starting to go, you know, a month or six weeks, you know, ongoing, then it should be aligned with our seasonal patio time, which is March 15 to November 15.

You know, we do inspections for patios to make sure that they're, you know, up to code. I I think we follow the same time and and logic for, food trucks. If they wanna be there for an extended period of time and they need to meet certain requirements, providing bathrooms, sanitation spaces, making sure that there's adequate parking, egress.

I think there's two different things that you're talking about. So, like, the time frame of three months, you said. Right? That that was that their threshold that said it should align with that? Did I hear your correct question?

The

I think we were saying, like, six weeks max of the renewable week.

Well, so I would say that the outdoor patio is for outdoor seating, which is a seasonal thing. Food vending, I don't think is necessarily seasonal unless there is seating that's provided. Because, I mean, we see food trucks that are, you know, year round and people wanting to visit food trucks year round, not necessarily seasonally. Again, seating being differently, because if that's part of their business structure

Mhmm.

Is that should we be providing that out like, we're not allowing people that are, restaurants to have vendor or what is it called?

Well, let's say they've got a

Tidewater Cafe.

Let's say we've got a patio season, but maybe they wanna operate after

that, then they can do the weekly.

So, like, it could be I

think what councilman Pawelco is saying that it should be aligned with the the permitting process. I think if there's outdoor seating, how are we going to allow for those food vendors when we're not

So I was just leaving for a from a time period. You know, let's say that they only wanted to operate for four months or five months, that they would then fall into the the March 15 to November 15. You know? So maybe they just wanna do the summer. You know?

But they would fall into that category, that license. If they wanna do all year long, then they fall into the the annual. Michael.

So I I like consistency. I'm really I really, I I I tend to agree with Greg with about the idea of falling into the same line as the sidewalk, outdoor sidewalk requirements, just, that outside patios, just for consistency sake. But for specifically about what timeline on how how long you can have your permit for, whether it's an annual or two day or whatever. I fall back on how the current ordinance for valet licensing is. And we changed this not that long ago, a couple just a couple years ago because we only allowed annual permits at one time.

And then because of special events, not specifically like festivals, but when, like, Valentine vodka has a special event at their location, they might wanna have a food truck because they don't have a kitchen, but they also if they're having a wedding at their their location, they wanna be able to have valet, but it's only for that one time. So we changed the ordinance. So the ordinance allows an annual license so that if you want to be in a specific location for a duration of the year, it expires December 31 of every year. So you have to renew within thirty days before the expiration to be renewed. But it also allows and this is where it's changed, is and this is where I think this is important and not make it complicated because I don't think that it should matter to you as a body whether or not the permit is for a day or two days or three weeks.

Because even with the valet license, it allows the city through, the policy through such as right now with the valet is through the city manager's office. And since I process it, basically, it's me, that an applicant can apply for a temporary, but for a valet service that cannot exceed thirty days. So that's how it's defined. But through the applicant and we do the same thing when it comes to parking space reservations, so that if you want if you're having an event and you needs to you would like to reserve, like, six spaces, you can rent those in advance and then parking enforcement will secure those parking spaces. You're you're paying for the service.

But they're securing those spaces just for that temporary that fifth one day And so that's all you get. So and this is where I'm talking about consistency is making sure that we're doing in the same form or style that we're already doing with everything else. So that it's just a natural process, not a complicated where one is completely different from the other. So that for someone like me, it's like, I wanna be consistent knowing that each process is done a certain way so that if you're if you're wanting to do an event that involves a food truck, this is the this is the policy. If it has to do with reserving a parking space, this is the policy.

If you're applying for valet service, this is the policy. There's some consistency to them all.

Oh, Michael, are you suggesting there's a one day, a thirty day, and an annual?

No. I'm saying that it could be the, a temporary license or an annual license. The temporary is determined by the city on whether it's a one day or a seven day, but it can't exceed thirty days. Okay. For example.

But it gives the city the ability to do its duty and its job because not every event let's say that there's an event at, the Rust Belt Market and it's for three days. They don't want a one day, obviously, if they're gonna have a special event that might So

the temporary allowed food service.

Yeah. Mhmm. So you wanna be able to have that. In fact, they didn't do it this year, but, the rest of that market did, provide me an application to do a special event during this holiday season that would be for twenty one days. And they wanted to close the alleyway behind them and have food trucks there.

So it would fall under special events, but it's would be an unusual because we'd never have an a special event that's that long. Mhmm. But we still have the ability through the city policy to have that ability flexibility to determine a length of time. And so, like, with this, we would still be able to have that length of time, but still say it cannot exceed a certain time. If it's a short term or a, temporary license versus an annual, which could be, you know, January 1 to December 31, or it could be like he's suggesting, and that is the outdoor service.

Can you get 12 temporaries? Can you just keep doing

No. That could be part of the thing too, is you can such as what we, are what is it that we're doing? You you can only apply, like, you you have a limit of, like, three times per year.

Okay.

Okay.

So it

limits the number of

Yeah. Applications. Of applications.

Okay.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Oh, that's right. We're doing that with, the nine mile in Woodward Marquis. Mhmm. I'm you're gonna know now. You're not supposed to know yet.

But we're we're looking to get that This

is public.

That getting fixed. We're getting it repaired. Yeah. Okay. But if you want to So similar parts.

Advertise on it, you can only do it a certain amount of times per year so that everybody has a chance to that whether you're a nonprofit or a a local business in Ferndale, to rent that marquee.

No problem. Alright. So I think, I think what you said about, you know, we don't necessarily have to concern ourselves with the temporary nature to the specifics because the city is implementing that. I think what we are concerned about is when it's crossing the threshold and, like, what is it triggering. And I think that knowing how your process works helps us to identify, well, when can we like, when we want to let the public know for and businesses so that they're aware of what's going on.

But when are we gonna start implementing these regulations on them when they're crossing a specific threshold? And, like, how can we trigger that to make sure that then they go through the process so that we can identify the specific, regulations that we want to.

So it sounds like if they apply for an annual license, then that would potentially trigger planning commission review.

I think Michael, gave a good example without doing so, but everybody gets a thirty day or, you know, a temporary. And then the moment they go to renew it, it becomes it becomes something else. Right? You can't apply twice.

Or or we let them apply, but no more than four times a year.

Okay.

Yeah. Or, you know, so because then that would be more of, like, a summertime thing. That's not saying that they're that is still temporary, not a semi permanent or permanent type of situation.

So if I understand what you're saying, so I could come in May and get a thirty day and then renew it for June and then renew it for July, and renew it for August. But after the fourth time, then I would have to apply for a year

long? For

out. Okay.

No. You're out for that year, that one year. So if you're gonna do that, you might you probably, based on whatever that fee might be, you might as well apply for a a year

permit. Well, but that also triggers if you're applying for a year, that also triggers a site plan and making sure that they have restrooms. But a temporary wouldn't you know, if they're gonna be there for a month, that wouldn't trigger that. Right.

Right. But I would say that because of all the other I'm sorry. All the other, requirements that we might be asking to be able to have that, that maybe thirty days would be too long?

I mean

Especially when we're talking about sanitation.

The the Oakland County Health Department does require that an employee restroom access plan is in it. So there is that there is that restroom component to that. I think maybe the only other thing that would maybe for the temporary one is if they wanna have outdoor seating that would probably trigger planning commission review. Or temporary,

you don't get outdoor seating, and you only get outdoor seating.

Or city review, like they do with the patios.

Maybe. Yeah. Yeah.

I've got a question. It might be a little bit off track, but maybe not. Is, what what is typically found as the agreement with the property owners? Is it a handshake agreement? Do they have some kind of a lease agreement?

What's have we asked or do we know what the

That was one of my questions that I wouldn't wanna ask Yeah. Property owner.

With special events, for example, you have the, green space right across the street from Mezcal. That's private property. Whenever a special event that request approval to utilize public space and they want to access that as well, we require them to get the property owner's permission in written a written letter that's sent to me that says that they're approving that. And they agree to also include them in their additional insurance or their liability insurance.

We sort of pulled or has that been a question to some of the other ones that were visited, the business arrangement between the whose property they're on and

So currently, there's nothing. But I have full confidence for almost all property owners that if someone came on your property and you didn't want them, you just call the police or ask them to leave. But, generally, what are they doing right now? I'm gonna assume some are probably just a handshake. Yeah.

You know, I pay $300 a month, then I can park here. If the if the property owner is smart, they'd probably require some lease with some insurance in case somebody gets hurt. But it's probably $50.50 on just a handshake or some kind of small lease. But as part of this, we can require it, obviously, as the app could the owner has to sign off on the application or a lease to be provided or something.

It's also, important to know that, the Ferndale fire department does require, no matter whether you're just there for a day or whether you're there all year, that you have to have a fire code inspection. And it's not just for the suppression system. It's also for everything else that has to do with anything that's cooking. They require it in a special event, and they are they're frustrated because right now with all these different in fire suppression. With all these mobile trucks that are everywhere and, like, urban rest because they don't know when they're coming in, who's coming in, and they're only there overnight.

And it's usually during the weekend. Fire fire marshal doesn't know. And but they should be getting an inspection. The inspection permit is valid for a year, but it's a challenge because we really don't know. So Two hours.

Even with this, we're still gonna have that challenge because somebody's gonna have, you know, a food truck that's gonna come in and do a service for them for a day, you know. And it could be at a block party, you know, or it could be just at a local business that's having some kind of event that we're not aware of. So, you know, it's always gonna be a a challenge, but at least we're getting a better control of what is. Because it's more about public safety than it is about anything else.

And it

is a requirement from the Oakland County. Yes.

So through the chair, something that you you pointed out, like, for example, with urban rest, if, let's say, they have someone come in that wasn't previously certified by the fire department because it's good for a year. If someone were to identify a vehicle like that, there is a fine. Is there not? I mean

Yeah. To, they could see be, told to cease and desist.

Or Yeah. But there's also a financial fine, I believe. Yeah. Probably not jail, but, I mean, probably something substantial, $500 or a thousand dollar fine.

I think it's 200. But I'm not it's Really? Yeah. Something like that.

That's nothing to tip okay.

Alright. Are there any other things that we wanted to discuss prior to our next meeting in which we'll bring in, stakeholders

commissioner Azar brought up a good one for our next meeting. I would say, what are what are the things that we would wanna know from the food truck vendors or property owners? Are there questions that we wanna verify?

Well, I I I think, like, for each of them, what are their intentions long term? Is there intentions to always be at that space, or are they, you know, are they looking as this as a stepping stone and they're going to, you know, build a restaurant and this is just the first I mean, I I don't know. You know? So the question, are they here this year, and then next year they're gonna be in some other city?

So the two questions if who do we wanna invite? Do we wanna invite only the food truck owners, or do you wanna invite the food truck owners in the surrounding neighborhood, you know, hundred feet, 200 feet, some kind of small thing? Because they're in on it too.

I I don't wanna turn into pitchforks and torches. I I think just the the vendors first and then and the property owners. And then maybe a future meeting when we've gathered all of this information, we could then invite neighbors to say, hey. You know, we understand that there's vendors near you, but I don't wanna get an opportunity for residents and vendors to be arguing with one another because Well, we would this resident, you know, found a paper cup and is just blown out of proportion.

Well, we would control it more, but I hear you. The other thing when doing I've seen a lot. We did it at the town hall and a couple m dot things we've done is where you do it from your phone. You can just log in and people can vote versus having each food truck owner come up and talk about their specific issue because they're gonna be very, you know, very focused on them, is to kinda decentralize it and just have questions where you can vote on your phone. You know, do you plan on staying long term?

Do you visit other cities? You know, do you feel like you have adequate space? You know?

How's the fire department process of getting Yeah.

We could come up with general questions. I would say vote vote now. Yeah. And so that way, it's not people becoming all about me, me, me, but it's kind of averaging out.

Yeah. Tell them to bring their cell phones so that they can vote. So

that's one way we can do it. Sorry.

Through the chair, one other question because I'm I'm curious that food trucks have been Someone's gonna be pretty popular for years. How far have we looked for other other places that have regulated this? I mean, I'm nationwide, you know, the great food truck race. They they do them everywhere. They probably do them in most larger public areas, but I'm just wondering if we, gone very far in looking at other ways this is being addressed.

That would be, commissioner Moshely and, councilor Polica. Zero. Zero.

So when when we first came up with the food truck ordinance back in, like, 2012 or '14, I researched, neighboring communities and communities across the nation, for similar of course, that was quite a long time ago, and that was when a lot of folks were just,

was it like or maybe it

was even longer ago than them. I forget I forget what year it was that we first created regulations, but it was It was

around that. Yeah. It was it was just before I came on account.

Maybe. Yeah. Yeah. And so leading up to that, we did quite a bit of research at the DDA, through the biz dev committee. Eleven.

That's 12. Or 12. Yeah. And it's kind of a cost to nations. It was kind of a new thing.

So we did do quite a bit of research at that point, but I haven't looked at anything since. So here's some questions. I think we if we ask questions such as, like, where do you typically find the most success operating, what's your, like, customer model, like, ordering at the truck, having seating, what are the times a day that are most profitable to you, like, more of, like, a information gathering of, like, their business model, I think, will help us to identify versus, like, would you like this or this? You know? More so, I think, if we focus on data

gathering Yeah. And I know that at the time, what really triggered it was we started seeing mobile vendors come into the downtown. And a number of business owners were getting concerned that all of a sudden we're just letting mobile vendors, you know, serve in front of their businesses. And and that's kind of what triggered it. I don't think we have that kind of an issue now.

Yeah. I'm sorry. But we're gonna have to, end the conversation. We're actually gonna have to, I think, end the meeting because we're gonna lose quorum because it's 08:30. And as, stated, Krista or commissioners are embracing do need to leave.

Yeah. I'd like to excuse myself from the meeting.

I think you're right.

Just wanna clarify, it is a $500 fine from the fire department.

I don't have anything. As everyone knows, Kyle left. So if you could be a little bit patient with me as I get back in the groove of current planning, but I think

we're sorry. Have, like, a new zoning ordinance. Zoning. Change your first step.

Not so easy.

And then, do you have a date for the report to city council on the planning commission annual report?

Do you have

a date that's gonna go to city council? Not yet. We'll just go have to go after the next planning commission meeting. And do you wanna review it at the next one? You wanna go straight to city council?

We'll probably wanna review it, make sure that everyone, is okay with our annual report, and then we'll it will go to city council.

Alright. So we can carry it to the next planning commission and then go

Thank you.

Thanks for the reminder. Yeah. Alright. Well, with that, I will adjourn tonight's meeting at 08:34PM. Thank you.

Yeah. Thank you. Sorry. I wasn't look watching the clock.

Oh, no. It's Thank you.

Have a good night.