Ep 282 A Twist on Jane Austen with Joan Bischoff DeWitt

Welcome to Pencils and Lipstick. This is a podcast for indie authors. I'm Kat Caldwell, novelist, short story writer, and book coach. Here on Pencils and Lipstick, we're obsessed with all things story, and it is my goal to bring you the writing tips that you need to make your novel come to life. Hi, everyone.

Welcome back to Pencils and Lipstick. This is episode 282 of the podcast, and it is going out on 10/13/2025. So it is October 12. As I record this, this is the, in in Spain, and tomorrow is my wedding anniversary because, of course, we got married on the thirteenth. So it is also my birthday month, and you get little, discounted goodies or possibly free, depending on the week down below in the show notes.

So I encourage you to go and check those out. I know a lot of you do not click things in the show notes, but you can find in the show notes the links to the, authors that I'm interviewing or the people who have, you know, software or whatever in the indie publishing field and find more information there. And if you're looking for their books, that is where you are going to find links. So, you know, you don't have to go looking for them on Amazon. You can just click the link, and it's usually directly to their website.

So today, we have an interview with Joanne Bischoff DeWitt. It is actually the two hundred and fiftieth anniversary of Jane Austen's birthday. So she would be 250 years old. So, Joanne actually wrote a retelling of Pride and Prejudice. So we're gonna talk about retellings.

We're gonna talk about, writing romance in the Christian world and quite a few other things. She's been around for a while. She was traditionally published. I think she has a couple that are indie published as well. So we talk about quite a few different things, what it means to be an author, and being in different genres, all the things.

So you're gonna wanna stick around for that. But if you are a Jane Austen fan, you're probably gonna wanna pick up this, retelling. I think that you'll really like it. Again, the links are going to be in the show notes. But it is called The Heart of Bennett Hollow, and it's actually set in Appalachia.

So I think that's a really interesting,

I

don't know, an interesting, like, twist on the retelling. Right? It's not in England. So we're gonna talk about how whether it's hard or easy to to write a retelling. You know, it kinda depends on on, people's opinions, but Joanne will give her opinion as someone who has written a retelling.

In as far as other news goes, I don't know if you guys have heard about this, but they're starting to make scented novels. Have you heard about this? This is like there is a, I guess, a vampire book in which they have scented the ink with Hellman's, garlic scent. Let me see if I can find this. This is The Primal of Blood and Bone by Jennifer Armentrout.

I honestly haven't heard of her. She's a best selling author. It looks like it's a vampire yeah. Vampire and knowledge analogy monsters called Kraven, and they've scented the ink with Hellmann's, yes, the mayonnaise, garlic. Like okay.

It's I don't know. I don't know how how to feel about this. I, I mean, I love cooking with garlic, but I I don't know that I want my books this small of garlic. It's a nice little marketing ploy, and it's definitely got people talking about it. But as far as, like, it how it affects the publishing world, I don't think this is I hope the trend doesn't take off, I guess.

That would be that would be, I think, quite difficult for indie authors to compete with. Although we have figured out sprayed edges, which is which are not going away, apparently. People have very strong opinions about straight sprayed edges. I'm I think some people do them really lovely. I have one that I ended up with, remarkably bright creatures, and it's it's just not very it's from the publisher, and it's not very well done.

And so it's hasn't convinced me, but I've seen some beautiful ones. So indie authors have figured out how to do sprayed edges, not very economically unless they do Kickstarters and they do them well. I just don't know. Like, we're gonna have to compete with, like, flavored ink. I think, apparently, you can lick it.

I don't know. That's just very strange. Okay. So, we'll see where that trend goes. Right?

But we are getting into the last bit of the year. I mean, literally, we're into the last quarter of the year. So if you are an indie author and if you, treat this as your business, you should be looking at what you can do for Christmas. What are you planning to do for Black Friday, Christmas? Even if you don't live in The US, Black Friday has now become a thing, right, almost everywhere.

What are you what are your goals for the rest of the year? ProWritingAid is starting their novel writing month, which is in November instead of NaNoWriMo. So are you gonna participate in that? The links to that will be in the show notes. I think it's I assume it's free.

Do you like participating in those? Are you going to, try to participate more in your social media? Are you you know, why or why not? I think this is a great time to reevaluate where you've come. Like, maybe you finished your book this year.

Maybe you started a book this year. Maybe I don't know. I'm gonna adjust my light here. You know, what have you done? It's a it's a good time to evaluate that.

Are you going to finish it before the end of the year and maybe get it out next year? I am highly considering this new idea that I got. I thought the other day, you know, I don't need to make this into a full novel. I could actually write it as a novella. And interestingly enough, that one idea just allowed, which just like opened up a whole possibility for me.

Strange. I, I find, I say it strangely enough because of course that option is there. But it hadn't it had eluded me for a little bit. And so when I thought, oh, I could just write it as a novella. Oh, so if I could write it as a novella, I might be able to get it done pretty quickly and have something fun for people to read.

We will see. Last week, I was hiking all week, so I am a little bit behind. And then I have a couple things that I have to travel for, the rest of the year this month. So I'm trying to figure out what I can and cannot do without going crazy. I did figure out something in the middle of the woods of the Smoky Mountains.

I figured out a little tweak that I want to make to stepping across the Thames, which I think is going to be fabulous. It's going to be a lot better. There is something about thinking in writing. I haven't talked about this for a little while, but we do need to spend time thinking. If you are writing anything other than kind of fast food fiction, you need to spend some time thinking.

It is in those moments that you are going to sort of realize what needs to happen in your book. Remember that everyone you admire, including Jane Austen, spends some time talking about their books, thinking about their books. They didn't have this pressure that we have created now of getting the book out, you know, in three months or two months. This is all sort of modern times created. And I will, once again, let you guys know the better your book is on publish date, the easier it's going to be to sell.

Now easier because selling books is not easy, but, if you have a product that you're proud of and that you know you've taken time to write the story as well as you can and that you can just you can kind of take the criticism as it comes. You know, I have this one review, I think it's on NetGalley, in which they find Tristan of my bended loyalty. They're right, I can't do this back here. They're like, oh, I find him really annoying. He's really whiny.

And right next to that review are three other reviews that say, I love Tristan. I can't get enough of him. It's I can't wait to read Bended Love. I can take that review and with in stride because I'm very confident in that. I like, I like this book.

I spent time on it. I figured it out. It's exactly how I want it to be. And, you know, as when I was little, I would rewrite the books that I if I didn't like how they ended or how things changed, I would rewrite them in my notebook. You know, feel free.

You can take the concept and rewrite it for, you know, I would be pleased to to hear that you did that. But, you know, if you take the time with your books and with the story and you write the story that you want to write, you can take the criticism, you can move on. And again, it is much easier to sell that book because you're very confident in it. So take some time. If you're stuck, maybe take some time to walk.

And, you know, I didn't really, like, purposely try to think about it. Every once in a while, I would let my mind come back. It was a nine mile hike, so I sort of just enjoyed it. And then sometimes would think about the story, and then it just sort of came to me. I wasn't trying to force anything, you know, which sometimes I do and sometimes it still comes.

But, you know, always have, like, your your recording app out there wherever you are. And don't worry about anyone thinking you're funny because or weird. People are always talking on their AirPods, so no one thinks you're weird anymore. I still feel weird sometimes, but that's okay. Something I have to get over.

So I would love to hear what you think about the Hellmann's mayonnaise smelling books and possibly tasting books. That's so funny. And wait. What are your plans for the rest of the year? I would love to hear from you.

You guys can find me on, Instagram and on TikTok. The links are in the show notes. You guys can get on my newsletter and you can always let me know there. If you guys have anybody who you want on the show, you can have them fill out my contact me form on catcaldwell.com or if you have published more than three books and you want to come on the show, it is always, easier to get on if you have sort of a a twist to why you're here. We do love hearing about your writing journey and why you're writing, but there's a little you know, if you if you have a twist, like, if you've rewritten a Jane, Austin book or, you know, if you have sort of a different genre or you have, some marketing tips or whatever, you have maybe you've done a great Kickstarter.

Come let me know. But just sort of give your it doesn't mean if you haven't done, you know, anything awesome, amazing, or totally different, don't worry. Neither have I, really. So you can always fill out the form and, and we'll get in contact with each other. So, also, yeah, if you know somebody else or you just want to suggest somebody, I will, you know, suggest them in that contact form, and I'll go find them and see if they'll come on the show.

Most writers don't say no. It's interesting. Most writers don't actually get ever asked to come on the show, but, yes. Anyway, we are going to finish up this year. We will have, podcast episodes through December, and then we'll have our annual, sort of New Year's.

Here it is. What are we gonna do? I'm gonna have to think about that because I'm I don't really do words of the year. I don't really, necessarily do goals because I have sort of quarterly goals, but we shall see. Maybe I'll find somebody who does goals.

If you're somebody who does goals, let me know and let's come on the show and talk. We can hash out whether it's good to do yearly goals, quarterly goals, whatever it is. But anyway, definitely check out the show notes below, and we are gonna go into the, interview with Joanne DeWitt. She actually goes by Joanne Bischoff DeWitt. She has a couple she will tell us she has a couple of books under one name and then another name.

So, you will you can find The Heart of Bennett Hollow by Joanne Bischoff DeWitt. She's also a Crissy and Carol award winning author. So you might wanna check out her other books as well. But before you do that, before you start clicking things in the show notes, let's listen to the interview. Okay.

Hello, Joanne. It is so wonderful to have you here. I can't wait to get into talking about books with you.

Thank you, Kat. I'm so glad to be here.

So we are gonna talk a little bit about your writing journey and your books. You have a book another book coming out. This is gonna be your fifth, sixth, twentieth, whatever.

I think it might be 10 or 11. I've lost count.

Too many. Alright. Yeah. So you have the heart of Bennett Hollow coming out, and it is a retelling of Pride and Prejudice set in Appalachia. So how did you choose Appalachia?

Good question. So a lot of my books are set in Appalachia, and it's it's where I've written a couple of my series before. And I'm also a huge Jane Austen fan. And then one day, I just thought, what if I merge those two worlds together, take a take a crack at a retelling, and see if I can set it in that culture? And it and Tyndale was excited about it.

So

it So this is your first retelling?

This is my first retelling. Yes. Okay. Alright.

So where did your love for Jane Austen come in into like, when did it start? Yeah.

I'd say it came from my mom. We always watch the movies, and she's always listening to the audiobooks and all that good stuff. And so just fell in love with Sense and Sensibility and Persuasion. They're kind of my comfort. I would call them my comfort movies.

Yeah.

I know the books are more important than movies, but just personally, they're my comfort movies. And so getting to enjoy the books has been special as well, and then taking those characters and giving them similar personalities. I should almost the same personality, but with kind of a country twist.

You

know? American country twist was was what I set out to do.

I think, like, I so I was reading the blurb before I realized it was Pride and Prejudice, which I think most authors and many romance readers would be like, this is a Pride and Prejudice retelling. Right? Like, it's, oh my gosh. It's so great. But so it's nineteen o four.

It's set in Appalachia. Like, coal is becoming a big thing. It's Mhmm. It seems like so obvious. How has nobody written this before?

Because America had so much so many moments in time, right, where, like, somebody rich could come in and completely change everything.

Exactly. Yeah. And it was so fun. That's why it was set in a coal town. I thought I need someone who's really rich that could come in and give him a reason to come in, and he comes in as a coal baron.

And so, yeah, it was really it was really fun to merge those two worlds together.

Yeah. How did you find out the information you had too about that time? Like

Oh my goodness. Well, I had my research books about coal mining and things like that and and different, different books I went through for that. And then for Jane Austen, I had two copies of Pride and Prejudice, one that I would write in and I would highlight the different characters, what was going on, and then one that was my pretty copy that I didn't wanna mess up. And I just would spend my evenings reading and drawing all in Pride and Prejudice, trying to remember all the details. That was actually the hardest part about the retelling was getting those facts right.

That, as you know, as a writer, my natural writing skills kinda fell by the wayside because I was so focused on don't mess this up. Yeah. That during edits, I had to actually come back in and give a little bit more of just me and and a little more of that confidence of my style as well.

How how important do you think it is in a retelling to really follow the story?

Yeah. I think it is. Yeah. I think it's important in the sense that those who love Pride and Prejudice, those who love, you know, Lizzie Bennet and those characters, they're gonna wanna see certain nuances. They're gonna wanna see certain details, and they're gonna wanna see them done correctly.

Mhmm. And so that was my fear. You know, a little bit of a voice in my head that was a little bit afraid of what people might say if I got it wrong, but really just a quest of honoring those characters and Jane Austen. I really wanted to honor her. I thought if someone in a hundred years, say, retold one of my books, you know, I would want them to honor the story.

And so that's what I set out to do.

Yes. So the most important question of the podcast, which which pride and prejudice movie retelling are you a fan of? 1995 Yeah.

Or Keira Knightley. I know. So it's a hot topic. Or Keira Knightley is like Exactly. It's a hot topic.

I am I graduated in the early two thousands. So I'd say as far as my generation goes, I Keira Knightley was my the movie that I, you know, connected with and all that. I had actually not seen yet the Colin Birth version. And then my mom, of course, is like, you have to watch the Colin birth version. So now I've enjoyed both versions, and I love them for, you know, different reasons, things like that.

What I like about the Colin birth version is it's longer

Mhmm.

And so they can get into more of the dialogue. It's really the novel broken down in more detail.

Yeah. That is true. Although the the so the sense and sensibility of the nineties where it was,

The Emma Thompson one?

Emma Thompson. I was gonna say Susan Sarandon, but I'm like, that's not right. Emma Thompson. You know what drove me crazy about that is she was too old to play that character. And I I'm not an ageist or anything, but she really was too old to play.

Yeah. I do know what she's yeah. She was a little old for that character, and I actually I think she might have written the script. I feel like she was the script writer for that one because I, somehow I got a copy of the script at a thrift store. That's amazing.

It was, like, bound. It was beautiful. It had the cover and everything, but so she might have had a little sway in

because I remember as a teenager being, like, she's like 30.

Yeah. Of course,

at that point, like, that was so old for me. I was like, you can't play this character. Anyway

Yeah.

Maybe you'll do a a retelling of Sense and Sensibility. I would love to. I would love to. So what is it about Appalachia? Are you from there, or you have family from there?

You just

No. I am from California. And so when I started writing my book set there, I started with the Cadence of Grace series. And a lot of readers thought I lived there. And I

thought, oh,

I don't wanna be a poser, that I that I live in Southern California, which really couldn't be more different. So it's just I have I'd say I have a folky background. My parents, my dad loves folk music. He plays the banjo. He plays the guitar and the harmonica.

So growing up, I always had Alison Krauss they always had Alison Krauss on or some kind of folky John Denver or something. And so I was kind of that old soul, country soul living in California.

And so

when I knew I wanted to write my first series, I knew it was gonna be set in the mountains, and I just I just picked over there because it kinda felt like my home away from home.

Yeah. Okay. Alright. I like that. So when did you start writing books?

If this is kind of your into your double digits era, I guess.

I started writing when I was a kid, which sounds kinda cliche, but I really did. And I knew when I was a kid and a teenager that I wanted to be an author, and I went on a quest to become an author. There were no real courses or anything that you could take at the time. There were a few that you could take, and so I my main education was how to write a query letter, how to write a book proposal, and I just self taught myself all these things and pursued agents and all that stuff because I just knew my dream was to become an author and to win a Christie award as a kid. Oh, really?

To do I got

to do

both of those. That is so cool. So You're great. Yeah. It was very exciting.

Dreams dreams come true, but it was a lot of hard work. And so it was just the thing that I knew that I wanted to do. And I, of course, had side jobs and all that other stuff. But You

gotta eat.

You gotta eat. Exactly.

So the it's The Lady and the Lionheart that won the Christie award?

It is. Yes.

K. Which one was that your first book or is that

That was my first, self published novel. Okay. I should say historical romance novel. It was the first one that I had I had gone the self published route for a little while because I was between publishers and feeling a little bit stuck. And so that one was the first one to win.

First self published book to win a Christie award. But I actually thought that I hadn't won because I was listening to the ceremony. My mom's listening to the ceremony, and they announced historical romance category. They announced Tamara Alexander who's a beloved author. I absolutely love her.

And I texted my mom and I said, I didn't win. You know? It's okay. And then they announced, and we have a tie. And the other winner is the lady in the lion heart.

So it was from the depths of despair to absolute joy in about

That's so funny. Oh my gosh. What year was that?

Oh goodness. Let's see. I that's a really good question. I don't remember what year it was. Yeah.

I don't remember the year.

I feel it.

A number ago. 04/2006. I think the Lady and Lionheart came out in 2016, around there, so it might have been 2017. Somewhere around.

Yeah. Yeah. I think that's around when I found out about the Christie Awards. I had no idea about them. So that's amazing that you knew about them and, like, pursued.

I think you might be the first author that, like, knew it and then pursued it with that much passion from the time you were younger. I think a lot of people, like, find that themselves going on and off the course, right, of just, like, I gotta eat. I gotta make, you know, do a different job and then come back. And Yeah.

Yeah. It was a it was a real passion. And, actually, when I was a kid, I would go to the bookstore. We had a Christian bookstore in my town, and I would, like, run my hand along the spines, and I would memorize the publishers, Bethany House and Harvest House and all the publishers that there were. And then I would touch the Christy Ward labels.

They were embossed. And I was just very, very obsessed. I want one of those.

I love that. That's so good. I mean, I think it does come down to you have to kinda be obsessed with this stuff. Right? Like, you have to really want it that badly because it's hard.

It's a lot of work.

You have to give it your all. And my family knows me that I'm kind of a little bit messy, a little bit scatter y. I'm absolutely not type a at all. But when it comes to my books, I go complete type a. I want things done to the best that they can be.

It's like the one area of my life where I like to make things happen. And then everything else is just we'll see.

Yeah. Me too. Laundry, what? It'll be Yeah. Exactly.

Figure it out yourselves. You're teenagers now. You'll figure it out. Yeah. So did you did you start out in historical romance?

I did. Yes. I started reading Lorraine Snelling. I had grown up with the American Girl books and Little House on the Prairie, and I just I wanted to be a pioneer so bad. So this was my alternate.

I can't be a pioneer. I can write about them. And so that's what I did.

That's so funny. You're in California. Everyone's surfing, and you wanna be a pioneer.

That's so funny. I know. My parents have pictures of me when I was a kid in the backyard. I would dress up in historical costumes, and I would set up, like, a home. Like, I would have, like, a little stool that I was cooking soup on.

And all my neighbor kids are super modern, of course. It's, like, the nineties. And I would get them to my house, and they had bonnets on. They had costumes on. When you played with Joanne, that's what she did, and it was fun.

There was something about the Little House on the Prairie series that made it feel really romantic. Mhmm. But my I remember my grandmother who grew up very poor in Arkansas in a dirt farm. Right? Like, you didn't even own the the land.

You just worked it. She's like, living in a like, when they lived in that mud hut, right, like, in the hill, like, he dug out, like Thawed house. Yeah. And she was like, the bugs. And she ruined it for me.

She's like, the bugs and the rodents. Like, grandma, stop. I want to I want to pretend like this is a beautiful thing.

You know, I have thought about that of living in the Earth. Would you have, you know, bugs and rodents and creepy crawlies in the walls? And you would. Now I know.

And, like, little rodents coming through because they can dig. You know? Like, anyway, she she ruined it. I was like, grandma, come on. She still like, we still read it, but I think as an adult, you can't help but Yeah.

Like, I'm gonna get all these rodents in my house. It's horrible. Anyway, I still love those books. So is romantic, historical romance is what you started with. Is that the only thing that you've ever that you stick with?

I for the most part, I went off the rails a little bit, and I did a young adult surfer skateboarding story once. That's just fun. It was so much fun, and I needed to write something fun in my life. It's that type maybe that type b personality where I need some change. And so I wrote that, which is really fun.

And then I did a two book, contemporary series about a single woman who learns how to rock climb because I was a single woman at the time. I was a single mom of three kids, and I I needed a break from romance

Yes.

And writing romance. And so I indie published that series, and that was also fun. Not a lot of book sales because my audience, you know, they're they're used to me writing the romance, but it was a risk I was willing to take. And for the people that read it and emailed me and said, thank you for writing about a single woman, It was really worth it.

Yeah. Yeah. Especially I I think there there is something about romance. We all love romance. I love it.

I love like, I was that kid always looking for the romance, you know, in every movie that my brother picked out, and I'd be like, there's why are we watching this? Like, there's no point if there's no real

Right.

But there are times that, like, it is not the entire life. Right? Like, we gotta we gotta have other books too. Yeah. But it is a little bit easier to sell, especially as an individual.

Easier to sell, especially when you have an established audience that that's what they know you for.

Yes. Yes. And it's interesting to me as an eclectic reader that people are not all eclectic readers. So I'm always like, oh, you you don't wanna read a different book?

Yeah. I agree. I'm the same way where I'll enjoy a good You novel or just different things. And

Yeah. Yeah. You gotta you gotta, you know, palate cleanse every once in a while. Mhmm. But that's alright.

So you have been both traditionally published and indie published. So can you talk to us a little bit about maybe differences that you've seen or, I mean, we know that they're different. Right? But how has your journey been between those two sides of the of the publishing?

Yeah. Good question. So with traditional publishing, the things that I really love about it is things are done for you by professionals. You know? The layout, the editing, the cover design, the planning, the scheduling, it's all done.

And my job is to write the novel and then be along for the other steps that they want me to participate in, like editing and stuff. And then with indie, you're just doing it all. Right? You're doing every little detail. You're planning the release date.

You're trying to work backwards and say, do I have enough time to finish it, edit it, design it, launch it, and so that gets a little bit more complicated. I like that one. I like that avenue for the freedom of when I wanna tell a different kind of a story, you know, one that might not land in the traditional route, which is why I did that single lady series. And actually, it's why I did the lady in the lion heart is because all the publishers had turned it down. We sent it to so many publishing houses, and they all turned it down.

A lot of them wanted it. Some of the editors were like, I wanna publish this so bad, but I can't. You know you know, my team, for whatever reason, maybe it's sales, maybe it's whatnot. And so that's when, I had told my agent at the time that I wouldn't self publish it. And then after we got umpteenth projection letters, I said, I'm thinking about self publishing it.

And she said, you need to set Charlie and Ella free into the world. Go go self publish it. And so she gave me the her blessing, I should say, which meant she made no commission. She got nothing out of it after all that hard work. But what ended up being really great is that it got picked up in other languages, and it got picked up by an audio company.

And so she got to still do some contracts and things for it, and it became her book just as much, which was really

special. Well, the and that just reminds people that the rejections that come in aren't always because of your book. Yeah. You know? They're I mean, it went on to win a Christie award.

I'm sure something It did. Like, oh, I should have published that.

It did. And when when the acceptance speech was given actually, it wasn't at the Christie award, so my new editor, I got an editor at the time, she gave my acceptance speech. But when I gave it also won the Carol, and I when I was stood up there to say my speech, all those editors were in the room. All those publishing houses were in the room. So I very gave a very tactful, hopefully, speech.

But there was also a little bit of pleasure knowing I had won this award.

Yes. Yes. Well, because it's such a weird industry. Right? Like, I mean and it's not you're not the first and won't be the last of, like, it's a very good book.

I had to end up going and get it published somewhere else. But just to remind people, like, you might get 50 rejections, and you might if you work hard at putting it out there in the world of if it's a good book, it's gonna find its audience. Right? It's

Absolutely. Yeah.

It's they have to say no for so many reasons. They do. Yeah. It's many of them will never know. Like, because it's just a form rejection letter a lot of times, and it's just, well, we have one like it or we have too many or whatever.

Exactly.

Yeah. So you so that was I'm sure that was a nice little boost.

It was. It was a nice boost.

But then you you returned after that to traditional publishing?

Yeah. At that point, when the lady in the lionheart it started to win some awards and it had gotten a rating on romantic times that was very rare. Usually, it was four and a half gold stars was the top. It had gotten five gold stars.

Oh, my god.

And so when that happened, I actually had publishers emailing me, which was a totally different Oh, that was great. And so that that it just it changed everything. They got me back in the door, and they wanted to know what I had next, that sort of thing. And I got picked up by Thomas Nelson. I got to write some books for them, which was really lovely.

And it was it was very there were some lows prior to Lady in the Lionheart. There were some serious lows in my writing journey because I got published relatively young. I was in I maybe in my mid twenties when I got my first contract with Waterbrook, which is a division of Random House. I'm getting paid by Random House. You know?

It's the dream come true. And then when, that series was over and I wasn't writing for them anymore, I felt like I had failed. I thought whatever I set out to do, I didn't do it correctly because you're not supposed to get dropped. You know? You're not supposed to get let go.

And so I actually went about a year where I didn't really post on social media. I don't even think I was really writing. I thought I set out to become an author. I presented myself as an author, and now I'm really not an author anymore. And I had this monologue in my head

Yeah.

That I had to just eventually delete and erase and say, I've still got stories inside the knee, and that's when I sit on my indie journey with a couple of smaller pieces and then the lady in the line hurt. So there were some lows before that kind of Yeah. That high. And I'm glad that it taught me both that it really grounded me and humbled me to have to kinda be rock bottom again, I should say, in my publishing, where I can't I can't get a publisher now. So it was a it was a painful but good experience.

Yeah. Yeah. It is. I've heard this from a couple people where they get another author who had had an agent for a while and your agent either retires or they move on to something else, and then you feel like, well, I gotta start again. Like, there's just something to that of, like, being dropped or your or your publishing house goes under or, you know, they're going in a new direction.

It's just it can really feel like, what do I do now? I can't imagine. Yeah. I mean, I'm sure it would just take a little bit of lots of energy to be like, I have to literally almost start again. Mhmm.

That's that's so depressing in in one sense. Right? Like, you have to work through that.

Yeah. It's true. It's a very organic process. It's like a relationship. I have writing students, and whenever I'm doing an interview, I always seem to myself, like, the thing I wish I knew was that publishing will break your heart.

And when you set out, you think it's gonna be so shiny. There's gonna be the book colors and the awards. It's gonna be amazing. It's like a relationship. It will break your heart at some point.

And then what do you do with that? And how do you persevere, put yourself back together, carry on with the love of books Yeah. And, you know, you have to change and grow with it.

Yeah. Absolutely. But, also, your the Lady and the Lionheart, which we will get back to the heart of Bennett Hallows in. It it it also wasn't your first book. Right?

I think sometimes we

Right.

From the outside, we're, like, when we're trying to be authors and we're trying to get, you know, the awards or the agent or whatever. I don't know about you, but I I see it in a lot of my, students of, like, we almost see think like that thing, that one is, like, the first book. Right? Like Mhmm. Somehow we put it out of our head that this writer has probably spent years, you know, honing their craft and writing.

And most likely, there's it's very few times that it's a debut novel. It can happen. But Yeah. So you have you had put in years at this point of studying writing and studying romance before you you wrote the the Lady and the Lionheart. Right?

Exactly. Yes.

So when you when you're talking to the to new writers, what would you tell them to really focus on if they're going for the storytelling aspect for to to one day write that book that will get that award that they want?

Yeah. A good question. I would say focus on your craft. I work with students through a online conservatory. I'm one of the instructors, and we focus on craft.

I encourage them to just a lot of times it boils down to characters. I think the biggest struggle that new writers or young writers have is that they are they're they love their characters the most, more than anybody else in the room. They're so excited, the boy is so cute, or the guy is so amazing, and the girl's so spicy, and she's so exciting, but does the reader love them as much as you do? And that's the conversation that you're trying to have is how do you have the reader fall in love with your character? They have to have good character.

They have to be likable. They have to, you know, be courageous, and they have to have a great character arc. And so teaching that, it's not just about having a Pinterest board, you know, and the story's gonna be so cute and fun. It's how do you make it really authentic, and how does your reader care enough to engage and buy and keep turning the pages. And I think, when you're when you're new, that's harder because you just yeah.

You love your characters, you think they're amazing, and the the reader and your editor might not.

That is true. That that that's I mean, I do see, some people have really, a a lot of talent for social media for, like, the new medias. Right? Mhmm. Which I envy them for.

But, you know, you can maybe even put together a beautiful book trailer, but is make sure that that's getting translated into your book, which for the heart of Bennett Hollow, you had to write an enemies to lovers story. So how did you get into the character of, like, making sure they like your Darcy character in

Yes. That was hard. It's actually it's funny because it's an enemies to lovers story. And so I told myself I called it, like, distrust to lovers because I'm like, I don't know if they're gonna make it if I have her absolutely hate him. The fun thing about mister Darcy is I think he's I don't know if you're familiar with Myers Briggs personalities, but I think he's an INTJ, and a lot of people will say he's an INTJ.

My husband's an INTJ. And so having fallen in love with my husband and gotten married, it was he's a tough nut to crack is what

I would say. I had

to be like Elizabeth then. Like, hi. Do you wanna have a conversation? And he's like, you know, very stoic.

Like, no.

But yeah. Exactly. What I learned is in his head, there's so much going

on.

He's he's trying not to mess up, and he's, you know, solving the riddle of now there's a woman talking to me, and I don't know what to do. And don't mess it up and say hello. And that whole monologue is going on before he even says hi. Where someone that's more cavalier, you know, they can just be like, hey, baby. What's up?

You know, they could just say it easily for him at heart. And so I put a lot of that into mister Darcy, and it was really fun to get to funnel a lot of my husband into him of one of the most lovable human beings on the planet. But in a crowd, can be very quiet and very focused on he's thinking through the logic of everything first. He's thinking through the logic of his environment, not just the emotions. Where Elizabeth Bennett comes at emotion based and then logic is second, mister Darcy would would do the logic first, and that's why he seems so stiff.

That makes sense. I mean, I always feel like he got a bad rap because he should be looking out for his friend. You know? Like, he Exactly. I mean, we're all on Elizabeth's side because that's the point of view of the novel.

Right? But, like Yeah. We like, whenever I step back, I think I'm overly logical sometimes. Like, it's his best friend. He should

be. Exactly. And that's why I enjoyed so much getting to write I have it here actually. Getting to write his where is he? Various.

His point of view.

Is it dual point of view?

It's dual point of view. So you get mister Darcy's thoughts. Chapter two is from mister Darcy's point of view. And one of the fun things as I say that, chapter the chapter we get his point of view is we actually get the dance. That first dance, you know, where he snubs her is actually

in his that.

In his head. And so I got to explain, through him why he didn't dance with her, what he's thinking. And he he's attracted to her. He doesn't know what to do, and so you get that insight.

Oh, that's fun, though, where you can sort of, like, hey. Have some sympathy for mister Smith.

Exactly. So then when you see how irritated Elizabeth is, you know, I I know why he did what he did, why he was so nervous and

so stiff. Yeah. Absolute okay. So as you were going through, yeah, your pride and prejudice book and writing this, is there anything that you learned that you didn't know before from the great Jane Austen about writing? Or

Yes. Yes. About writing. What I loved is how she came from an era that was so we think of them as so straight laced, you know, and their bodices and all the things in polite society. And her wit, I really latched on to how witty she was.

And, of course, in that era, it takes her more words to get there, you know, than in our modern, you know, where we would crack a joke. It might take more words, but then you realize, oh my gosh. She was being very, very witty in that moment. And I love that about it. And I also was pleasantly surprised about the some of the characters are reflected different in the movies.

And to realize that, to really latch on to the how much her dad loved mister mister Wickham. He really liked mister Wickham. And in the movie, we don't really see that. You know, mister Wickham ran away with Lydia. It was very off putting, but that he was almost like his favorite son-in-law.

You know? He really liked him. And so I got to do a little touch of that in there. I didn't want to make my dad like him quite that much, but I gave, the Lydia character a line that he's gonna don't worry. He's gonna like him as much as he loves, you know, your fellas.

Don't worry.

But it's interesting.

That in there. Yeah. So I kinda gave my little twist.

Yeah. I haven't read it in a while. So it is true that the the movies do alter our memories of the story, I think.

They do. It's yeah. And it's really just the storyteller's or the, you know, the scriptwriter's way of smoothing over some things they might wanna tweak a little bit.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that was such a big deal back then. I wonder if that actually happened to somebody she knew, and that's how she said it.

I think it probably did. I'm sure it's a lot of reflection of personal stories. And then I was the other thing that just hit me is there's no kiss. There's no kiss in Pride and Prejudice, and there's no kiss in the Keira Knightley version. Oh, no.

There is. Does he kiss her forehead? I can't remember what happened.

No. They just forehead touch. Yeah.

Okay. The little forehead touch. And so it was the first time I'd written a romance novel where I didn't put a kiss in it. And it was very difficult because I wanted to be as romantic as possible. So I did a couple little tricks that hopefully make you feel the warmth of a kiss, but I wanted to honor Jane Austen by if that was her time frame, that's what felt appropriate to her.

I'm gonna do the same thing in my novel, and I'm gonna not put that on screen.

Yeah. Isn't that interesting how, like I think it is one thing that we might need to be reminded of in this day and age of a lot of romance that all of the classics that have stuck through hundreds of years had very little physical interaction.

Exactly. Yes.

It was really about falling in love.

It was about falling in love and that character and honoring each other, and the restraint is actually so romantic. You know, when they're when they're holding back, that's, I think, where the romance really shines.

Yeah. It's the tension and the

Yes.

And, you know, remembering, like, my very first interaction with an editor, I she gave me a lot of harsh but very good advice. But I remember one of her some of the best advice she gave me was you have to leave so like, at least half of it to the imagination of the reader. Like, that is why we're actually reading because we wanna see it in our own eyes. And so, you know, that tendency to wanna say exactly, like, every pass that they're doing. You know?

His finger touched her finger. You know? You're just, like, telling the whole movie that you have in your head. And I think that's something that is a little lost these days in the craft of allowing the reader to to fill in the gaps because that's our own experience. Right?

Like, we get to read the book and, like, we get to be Elizabeth clearly. Exactly. And then mister Darcy will figure out.

Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Yeah. I actually have a rule for myself of one kiss per book.

So that way I can have that restraint and let other little nuances shine because going back to teaching, some of my some of my students are teenagers or or they never had a boyfriend or things like that. And they go, how do we write romance, Joanne? And I'm like, it's always about being friends. And it's about, you know, the guy opens the door for the girl or he has her favorite candy bar or he remembers her favorite movie. That's where romance begins.

It doesn't have to be mushy. And it's actually that's the stuff I think that's the sweetest and the cutest is those endearing moments.

Yes. That very strange human action of, for some reason, this person attracts my attention. Right? Like and I don't know why, but I just really wanna be around that person a lot. It looks like

That's really well said. So with

if anyone's listening, you do you categorize is it historical Christian romance specifically, or is it just historical closed door romance?

Yeah. So I would say, typically, what I write is historical Christian romance for the Heart of Bennett Hollow. It's, I I I I I'm trying to describe I've never described this before. You're my first interview, so we're gonna find the words together. I put it a little bit more in the center.

That way, any people who are not religious, who love Pride and Prejudice, I didn't wanna, like, hit them over the head with a religion. And so I said it really kind of not neutral, but I I put it a little bit more towards the center. That way, it would bless those readers and they would still get that story that they love, and they're gonna get a little bit a touch of my faith in it. Mhmm. I laced it really delicately.

And there's obviously scenes in almost I think most Jane Austen stories where you see them at church. You know, we see Emma at church and

Yep.

She's their reverend's falling in love with her and all that stuff. So church life was a really normal part of their culture.

Right.

And so that's kinda where I got to spend some time with my faith is in those little church scenes.

Yes.

Add a little warmth and things like that.

And I laced

a couple things through it. Actually the secret that I did is she's stitching on a sampler, throughout the novel. And so she grows as that sampler is finished. And so I was able to give her a bible verse that she's working on, and so I got to plant some words that were important to me. But, again, it was more subtle, a little more soft.

Okay. Okay. So then if you say, the other ones are Christian historical Christian romance, what is it because now that we have all these breakdowns in genres. So I'm you're not I'm I'm talking about this with many, many authors, because I think we're all trying to figure out the genres are breaking down in order to find the right reader. Right?

But then you have to write kind of to what the reader expects in order to get keep them. You know? Like, it's getting a little complicated. So if somebody does want to write historical Christian romance, are there expectations to I mean, I would assume that there has to be, like, very little explicit touching. Right?

Like, where there's a little there, but what what are kind of those requirements for them?

Yeah. Good question. I'd say it's gonna vary from publisher to publisher because some publishers are going to be more, they're gonna want more of the faith in it. And so depending on which publisher it is, they'll have their certain kind of comfort zone. And then for me, it's usually that the character will be on a personal journey growing as a person, growing in their relationship, growing in their family, and then also growing in their faith.

And then sometimes it's more obvious. Like, with the lady in the lion heart, it's very, very obvious. Like, Charlie, it's meant to be it's an not really an allegory, but it's meant to be like a retelling a little bit of the gospel. It's like meets Beauty and the Beast. That makes no sense, but it worked.

And then with the romance, it's again just that the subtleties.

Okay.

Each book for me is a little bit different. I tend to try to show romance. Like, there's a scene in Sons of Black River Mountain where he Avon teaches him to the the character to dance and he's deaf, so he can't hear what she's saying. And she's, like, you know, trying to get him to look at her and pay attention. He's got his his hands on her hips and he's super nervous and it's very romantic, but again, it's very chaste.

And so the other stuff will happen off screen.

Yeah.

But you get to see you get to see why they fall in love. And I like to have my romance be very, like, heart tugging, co curling, toe curling. I wanna feel the romance without it being distasteful.

Yeah. Yeah. I think that would probably be the right word to use for for Christian romance. It's like trying not to all that stuff can be left to the imagination of the

Exactly. Yeah. That's about it.

It's very low. It's probably no spice. Right? Even the spicing is throwing me off sometimes where I'm like

Yeah.

Sometimes people don't even like kissing. It's like Yeah. It does get a little difficult.

Yeah. I like and I I think we do a disservice to the Christian market if we don't have it a little bit. I don't wanna say a little bit of spice, but authenticity. You know? Yeah.

We don't want it to be prudish, but making sure that it's authentic and romantic and tender Yeah. I think is is that balance.

It's human. It's human. Yeah. Human element because you I mean, it's part of life.

Right? Yeah.

But it is interesting in this. It it like, everything has is really fracturing and splitting. Right? The more explicit some genres become, maybe the more you're pulling back on others, and you just have to be sure that you're hitting the right the right readers and the right

The right readers. Yeah.

What they're expecting. And, so I guess even with historical Christian romance, they might be on their own faith journey. But is it always are you always explicit in, like, bible verses and prayer and thing or is that also very, like, author chooses? How how

are you doing? Yeah. It's very much the author chooses. Some authors will have a full sort of, you know, sermon written out, and and this is how deep the faith is, and this is how deep maybe a conversion is or something like that. I tend to go I tend to lace in a little bit more delicately.

Just that's just my style. Mhmm. So, you know, again, I'm gonna reference Sons of Black Mountain again where that character who's deaf, he was an alcoholic. And so I wouldn't say that alcoholism is tied to not having faith. Right?

That's not what I'm saying. But just that on his journey, he realized that he needed help. He needed support. And his faith became more real to him as the struggle became stronger of being sober, and he is sober. And so for me, it was about not just having a Bible in his pocket.

Right? But but it's a real day to day surrender and sacrifice for him to stay sober for his family. And that's where I got to make the faith real.

Yeah. Yeah. That may this so that's really integrated into his character arc

of,

like, the struggle that he has. But that's a nice way to do it. I've read a couple different books where sometimes you're just like, well, it's it's almost runs parallel where I can see where, like, the having it integrated into the character arc just feels a little more authentic maybe.

Exactly. Yeah. Because I think everybody is drawing wherever they are, whatever their faith is. So drawing courage from something. And so just it's just showing that's where they draw their courage from.

Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. So the the Heart of Bennett Hollow, this episode is going out October 13. Yes.

Thirteenth. I gotta make sure. But it's out now. Right? It comes out October 7?

Yeah. As of when this episode airs, it I'm looking in the book like it's gonna tell

me. Yeah. I think it's October 7. Speak to me, but okay. Speak to me.

It's I should probably look it up when I it. I think it's the seventh. Yeah.

And so I heard that this is, like, the two hundred and fiftieth year of Pride and Prejudice. Is that true?

It's Jane Austen's two hundred and fiftieth birthday.

Oh, it's her birthday.

And so there's some, you know, Jane Austen retellings coming out. There's a couple other things just in the the Jane Austen culture that everybody's celebrating her birthday. So this, funnily enough, I didn't do that on purpose when I

was gonna ask you, did you know that?

No. That would have been really clever, but I didn't. But but that's actually, I think what sold it more easily is all the shares are saying, oh, so do you pay for a 200 birthday? I thought You're

like, yes. Absolutely. I totally knew that. What?

I meant to do that. Yeah.

Well, that's such a great coincidence. I love that.

So great coincidence. Absolutely.

And is it gonna come out in audiobook? Do they have plans for that?

Come out in audiobook. Yes. They've got a lovely narrator, who's working on it right now. She's narrating it.

That's so cool. So we're gonna have paperback, audiobook, ebook. I'm sure, like,

it's

gonna be great.

Yeah. All the things.

Very cool. Do you have any plans for next year? Any books coming down the

line? Good question. I do. So for my publisher, they signed me for three Jane Austen novels, three Jane Austen retellings. And so I am currently writing the second one.

I can't say what it is yet.

The next one. I know. Blink twice if it's Emma. No.

Yeah. Right? I actually got to send them because I asked my editor. I said, which one do you want next? Thinking she would just say, you know, do an Emma or do sentence stability.

She said, send me concepts. I thought, oh, great. You're gonna make

me really work for this.

So I sent her a concept first, sense and sensibility, Emma, and persuasion, and they select.

They select. Emma's my favorite because she's I love how Jane Austen just like that scene where he says that very badly done, Emma. Just like Yes. You know? Oh, it's so good.

It's so horrible, but it's so good.

I know. I love that moment. So now I have to ask you. Do you love the Gwyneth Paltrow version? Or I think it's Anna Taylor Joy is the I

like Anna Taylor Joy.

I like yes. Okay. Because I grew up with the Emma or the Gwyneth Paltrow version. It's perfect. It's classic.

But I love the Anna Taylor Joy version, and mister Knightley in that one is so.

I think the director is so good. It looks very, I don't know who the director is, but it looks very almost Wes Anderson ish. You know? It's very stylized. It's got

a quirkiness to it.

And I

I love the casting in that one. So that's another one that we watch, my little one. And, actually, my daughter loves it, that one as well.

Yes. I love I love the dad. I I love everything. Yes.

He owe Bill Nighy so well. So that one that one

Is there a draft? Is there a draft?

Yeah. I was

like, I love it. And then

the kiss at the end, right, talking about that perfect romance is they put up the screens, and they get to kiss. It's just perfect.

It's just perfect. So so where can people follow you if they want to read this book? We will have the links in the show notes, but if they wanna see when you reveal the next one coming, where how how can they follow you?

Yeah. So they can find me on Instagram. And then, of course, on my Facebook author page I feel like I don't reference Facebook enough because a lot of us hop over Instagram. Yeah. But I am there.

I have a Facebook author page and then my website, where I, there if they go to my home page of my website, there's a free little novella if they sign up for my newsletter, and then I always give those updates to it.

Of course. The newsletter is important. Yes. Awesome. Yeah.

Well, thank you so much, Joanne, for coming on. I can't wait to to read the Heart of Bennett Hollow. I think it's gonna be great and good. Like, it's fall. It's time to read Jane

Austen again. Perfect fall story. I put a lot of apples and falling leaves in it just for that.

That's amazing. I love it. So we'll have all the all the links in the show notes below, and thank you so much. And we'll just have to have you back when when you well, so we can talk about the next one, whichever it is.

I would love that. Thank you. This has been so much fun. Thanks.