Ep 284 The Marketing Book Coach with Becky Grogan

Welcome to Pencils and Lipstick. This is a podcast for indie authors. I'm Kat Caldwell, novelist, short story writer, and book coach. Here on Pencils and Lipstick, we're obsessed with all things story, and it is my goal to bring you the writing tips that you need to make your novel come to life. Hello, everyone.

Welcome back to Pencils and Lipstick. This is episode 284 of the podcast. And today I am recording this part a little bit early because I am heading out to Charleston. Yes. So when this goes out, it will be April of April?

10/27/2025. Wow. I just went backwards six months or maybe forwards. I don't know what I was thinking. Today, it's the April.

Whenever you're listening to this, it will be probably closer to Christmas than seems absolutely physically possible, and I thought that it would be a good time to talk about marketing. I think the the last quarter, of the year is a great time to assess not only your writing, but your marketing of your books. It's probably too late at this point to, like, get on any sort of marketing bandwagon. You know, there might be a few sales or in person things you can do, but many of those in this holiday season have already been filled. So what I want to do with this episode, we're talking with Becky Grogan.

We're going to be really looking towards the future, not only with whatever book you have, but maybe even with the books that you already have put out. But let's think about 2026 if that's I mean, that's, again, mind blown. Right? But marketing is something that every author has to do. It is not usually something we're really awesome at because we you know, we're like we're writers.

Right? But Becky is unique. She's actually a, fiction, coach as well, book coach, but she found out that a lot of writers don't know how to market. And, yes, she's right. We don't.

Right? So, she has created her, book coaching around marketing. So she says that she helps fiction writers make sense of marketing without losing their voice. And she has quite a few tips in here in this interview that's coming up that you are probably gonna want to listen to. Just just gold.

There are things in that she said that I was, like, writing down, and I couldn't believe that it she was making it sound so simple, but I hadn't thought of it before. Right? And that's kind of what we want marketing to be, like, simple. Right? I can do that.

I can make sense of it, especially once somebody makes it make sense. Right? So she helps you clarify your unique brand identity and voice, pinpoint your ideal reader, and begin growing your audience, craft a personalized book, marketing strategy. So if you go on to her website, which is beckythebookcoach.com, links are in the show notes, you can see how you can work with her if any of this resonates with you, or just understanding. Maybe you're in your first book or you're just now getting started with marketing, maybe just understanding what book marketing involves.

Right? So I think that you guys should continue listening to the interview. That's about all I'm gonna have for you today. Like, as as of now in my writing life, I am just I have this little trip that I have to make. I'm trying to write as well.

And when I come back in November, we're gonna have a couple other interviews going on. But I have an idea of where of of maybe switching up the podcast a little bit. But I'll tell you guys a little bit more about that in the coming weeks. Not a whole lot is gonna change, but just an idea of how we can implement, you know, a little bit more writing craft. But you guys let me know what you want.

If you want somebody on the show, you can send them to kat caldwell dot com and fill out the contact form there. You can hit me up, on Instagram. DMs and TikTok are a bit odd. Right? But you can try me there.

You can also get, on my newsletter and respond to any newsletter that comes out. You do have to have three books out in order to get on the show, or you have to have some sort of software or something that you think, is ideal for indie authors. But, yeah, let me know. Or if you guys have somebody you want on the show, let me know. I'll contact them, see what they say.

Many, many writers say yes. We had I had Jasper Jasper Ford on the show because somebody requested him specifically, and it was really fun to talk to him. So all of that. Be be sure to subscribe. I never say this part, but subscribe and share the show.

It it is a a small podcast, but I love all of you guys who listen. I love seeing the steady numbers coming in and just all over the world. So yeah. And especially if you're somebody across the pond or anywhere else in the world, I would love to hear what's going on in in the book marketing world or the book world wherever you live. So, if you if you wanna come on the show, if you want a an author who is not American, I think I've had American, Australian, and and Canadian, and British, but and Scottish.

Okay? So but if you want somebody else on the show, as long as they speak English, you can have them on the show. I mean, we could do the the interview in Spanish, but the audience wouldn't really be able to not all of you would be able to understand it. But, yes, please let me know who you want on the show, especially for 2026. It would be fun to get some different people.

I'm looking at getting some people who have set up a business around books even though they aren't authors, maybe like a local bookstore owner or a blind date with a book, owner. I I think it would be really interesting to see how they set that up and maybe how they work with authors, if that interests you guys. So let me know. But right now, we're gonna talk about marketing because I am always in the marketing trenches. I think a lot of you are.

If you're on your first book, there are things that you should do that I did not do because I didn't know about them way back in 2017. And I'm not sure that I would have had the courage to do them anyway, but I'm here to tell you that you should have the courage to do them. Listen to Becky, contemplate contemplate what she says, try to implement it because, really, if you want your book in front of people, you are going to have to market it. I know it sucks, but this is part of this modern way of writing. Right?

So let's get into the interview. Of course, all of the links are in the show notes below. I highly encourage you if you resonate with Becky to go to her website. You can go to her services and you can get, mini marketing audit. You can have her help you build your marketing foundation, or she has a group coaching marketing collective.

So I highly encourage you to go, go talk to her, listen to the interview, see what Becky's doing, and figure out some sort of marketing strategy for 2026 for your books. Alright. Let's get into the interview. Alright. We are talking with Becky Grogan today, and my surprise question for her is, have you heard the new album yet?

It dropped today.

I have been waiting. I have heard snippets. I have not listened to all of the songs, but I'm sorry. I am a Taylor Swiftie Swiftie Swiftie. Love her.

You are the biggest Swiftie I know, so I had to ask. So now people are gonna go backwards and be like, oh, they recorded on that day.

Yeah. So I have been I've been watching the news, but, I was like, I need to get things done this morning, so let's just don't start looking to the house.

Be still my heart.

Let's just just be calm. You know, your you could be your grandmother, but I just I have a lot of admiration for her because she she hates it. You know?

Oh my gosh. I mean, she is the epitome of what we're gonna talk about today. She is an incredible businesswoman and marketer. Like Yes. So good.

She knows her audience. She knows her her music. She knows her brand, her style, like and she went for it, and it's like, that's what we need to do. That's what we I mean, you know, she's so far above us. But

But you can watch her, and you can learn just by watching what she does, the way she talks to people, the the really deep connection she has with her fans, obviously. Yes. But she does things in a very genuine manner, and I that's that's the key.

Yeah.

You see what you see, and that's who she is.

And who she is. Yeah. So let's talk about marketing because you are a book coach. You you specialize in romance. Correct?

Is it any romance or contemporary?

All romance. I because I just I am my favorite if I have to choose a favorite, it's gonna be holiday romance and working the setting in as a character. I think that the setting the holiday setting can act as a catalyst in the story.

Yeah. It's a

whole different thing. But that's my super fun. Like, I love it. Love it. Love it.

I love writers.

Writers. What what holiday? What holiday is least written about?

There's not a lot of writing about pagan holidays.

There isn't.

No. But, you know, it's with the the rise and fall theme. And Halloween being so big, there's been a lot of books romances written about that. And I think there's a lot now that are being written about witches and shapeshifters and all of that. But there's a lot of paganism in there that's very interesting.

And when you look at it, how it has influenced our Christian holidays. Yeah. There's so much to learn.

I think

that yes. And every holiday can be in a book. There's none that can't.

Yeah. I mean, I think Christmas is so it's almost it's easier because it's at least a two week thing or, like, you know, gearing up towards it. Like, you can have a little more time, but I don't think there's a lot I I was talking to a Jewish romance writer, and she was like, I think my book is the only Hanukkah book out there. Like, there aren't a lot of Hanukkah books.

No. Well, you're very right about that. But, I mean, there's just an opportunity there. I think when you have the setting and the time frame is within holiday, There's so many ways to that the characters relate to it because every holiday brings out emotions.

Yeah.

And Yeah. And they make you act in certain ways. And, you know, like, I always think it's so funny. I was like, I think more Thanksgiving ones because everybody needs to sit around the table, and the the main female character needs to pull out or stretch your pants and be like, oh, yeah.

Yeah. And she needs to actually eat. I always have my Yes. I always have my characters eating because, ugh, it just drives me crazy. Although I used I watched, the ways to get rid of a guy.

What is that one? Matthew McConaughey.

50 ways to

no. No. Something. Yeah. I have to lose a guy

in ten days or something.

Yes. How to lose a guy

in ten days.

And she's always eating, but she's so tiny that you're like I feel like that's BS. And she's just she's

so tiny. But, you know, she's so funny. And so much in that movie, I don't know if you realize this, she ad libbed. Did she? Yes.

So, like,

there's I would love to

see her. Yeah. The the scene where they're sitting at the table and they're playing poker, and she pull picks up the plant and goes, this is Arlo. And, you know, she's, like, just going off, and they're all like it was so hilarious, and she ad libbed that whole thing.

She ad libbed it? Oh my gosh. It's so funny. Yeah. I love her.

Yeah. I love her. You know? So let's get back. You and I can chat forever.

Yes.

We've we've chatted about the whole world at this point, but you are, I know you because of author accelerator. So you are a certified coach, and then you've been marketing

for Ever.

Ever? Yes. And you've done the serious marketing, and now you're doing book marketing.

You know, marketing for me started early early on. My dad's a DJ. So well, he was. He passed away. But so I grew up with you know, he at that time, if you were a DJ, you had to do your sales as well.

So you had to go out and get the clients. And my father hated to write. So by the time I got to I was, like, fourth grade, he said, alright. I want you to write some spots for me. And I'm like, okay.

So he's like, alright. 13 lines, thirty seconds. 26 lines, one minute. Here's Belk. Here's JCPenney.

This is what they're they want you to, you know, focus on. Use lots of pretty words. I'm like, okay. So I just started writing spots for him and he would record them. And Wow.

That's amazing. It was it was so fun. And I started really seeing where it just didn't have to be. And if you love a pink Easter bonnet, come to JCPenney for their 30% off sale. No.

It it became more of like a story kind of thing.

Yeah.

And I just and I'd always been a reader, and I can't live without a book. I'm I'm one of those people. I have to read, like, three books at a time. Yes. Yeah.

And I always had my book in stack of books with my book on top. And any chance, I'd be like

Exactly. Exactly. I loved growing up without a phone because I would rush through my test then I'd grab my book.

Exactly. And I remember my ninth grade, missus Pretoria, she said and she was so mean. Everybody was afraid of her. I liked her. She said, where did you learn your vocabulary?

And I pulled out and I put up a Harlequin romance. I'm like, from here? And she's like, no. I'm like, yes. Look at it.

Good words are in here. And really, it it there's lots to learn. And she was just surprised. And I was like, no. This is what I

No. Well, she was what she's probably like my grandma, my step grandma, who would look at the cover and be like, you can't read that. And then when I finally yes. It was trash And who? The only uneducated women read that.

You know? Of course, most of my family didn't read it. So I was like, okay. Whatever. In Northern Wisconsin.

You know? As I'm reading those, They're amazing. Have you read Flowers from in the storm where he has a stroke at the very beginning?

This is a Harlequin? Yeah. Oh, wow. They've advanced. Oh, no.

This is, like, really oh, okay. We'll talk afterwards. I'll let

you know. Because I have I have a whole Harlequin story, and it's how I got through sixth grade. I have to tell it. You can edit it. It's sixth grade.

So my sixth grade teacher, missus Fry, had a bookcase in the back, and it had four four shelves. And it was nothing but harlequins. They would That's so funny. And so she would say, if you get your work done, you can pick up a harlequin. If you've done all of your assignments for the week and you've done blah blah blah, then you can take them home with you.

You can, like, check my harlequins out. I read every book That is so funny. On her shelf. And she still called me pea brain. But

I think you'd get in trouble these days for that.

I know I loved her, though. She was so That's so funny.

I wonder where she got that from.

She believed that any that learning did not have to be just from textbooks. Yeah. I love it. Capture the interest of a student, no matter you know, that you should capitalize on that. And all of the girls in the class, we all we were like, have you read this one?

Oh, oh, you know.

And they're all historical most, isn't Harlequin all?

No. No. No. They're they're contemporary.

Okay.

They do have, you know, they have the different, the the brands. They have the historical. They have the ones that were all about doctors. They have the western one. But, Janet Daley started as a Harlequin writer.

Wasn't Harlequin where they had to write, like, within what was it? 80,000 words or maybe it was like You

know, they were they were very short. They were very formulaic. And, what what was interesting to me was that a lot of them were written in The UK. And so I would read these and I'm like, I don't understand what that means. So I had to go and ask or I had to look up something from a dictionary or an encyclopedia because there was no Internet.

And so you really started I love words anyway. To me, words are just fascinating. And so it was like, it was a way to learn. And it just just kept feeding this curiosity I had about writing and, and reading and how important it is. And, you know, I tell everybody, you can live without math, but you can't live without words.

You really can't because I've lived my whole life without math.

Me too. Math

Much to my husband's dismay when he's like, your business is your books are not lining up.

I got I got that from my husband the other day. He's like, how can I'm like, just

just pay the credit card bill, honey. It will come. It's fine. Yes.

I'm like, my IOU is getting really heavy.

It's really long. So I think there there is kind of an influx of well, I don't know. Maybe it's just because I'm in this world. There are more of us who are coaching writers. Right?

We're helping them get a better product to market because, really, you need a good mark good product. Right? Like, Taylor Swift does not record her first round. You know? This is there are iterations.

She is writing revisions. Yeah.

There are revisions. I think we forget this. Right? So as writers, so but but your expertise as a marketer, I think, makes you really interesting as a coach because marketing seems to be the thing that we are so afraid of. Like Yes.

Because we just don't know what it is. And you said that you started in fourth grade, and I'm wondering if maybe that childlike attitude is actually what we're missing, you know, of, like

There's nothing we're afraid of. I do have to say and having been a marketer in corporate America for a very long time and seeing the industry and how people look at the industry and how people within the industry, there's so many catch phrases and special words, and it's gotta be like that. And people get like, oh, I don't know how to do that. Yeah.

I don't

know what ROI is and KDP, you know, all these things. It's like, you don't need that. And and that always really frustrated me because marketing is and marketing is not sales. And that that's the other

thing

people cannot differentiate. Marketing is not sales. You're not closing a deal. You are making a connection and you are getting to the heart of the decision. So, really, if I know what you want, what's in your heart, something that, you know for instance, if you are trying to choose a retirement community and there are certain things that are important to you, yes, the money is gonna make a big deal.

The it always does. But that's not why people go to a certain place. They go because they see themselves moving around, being active. You know, their kids are no longer responsible. Don't have to worry about what's gonna happen to mom and dad because they're taking care of it.

Right.

And

you just you address the the issue with the people who are sitting across from you.

Okay.

And you're giving them information. That's that's all you're doing. You are giving them information, and you are connecting with them and finding out what is it that you want.

Interesting. So do you think we mostly conflate it with sales? Do you think that's part

of that? Absolutely. And that's why people don't they're like, oh, marketing is like, no. No. No.

We're the story behind the sale.

Oh, okay.

If you think about, and and that's why writers, I don't understand. They they have every tool in their toolbox that they need already. They can tell a story. They know how to use their words. They are able to connect with people, and that's, you know it's transformative.

And that's all that marketing is, is I'm connecting with my reader. And how do I do that in an authentic manner? That is not about selling the book at that point. Because you have to develop an audience before you can generate income. So that's that's the pattern.

You just can't think that I've written this book. The end is on that last page. And look, I'm gonna sell nothing. Because no one's wait no one's waiting for that book because they don't know why you're writing, who you're writing for, who are you. And those very basic questions, don't have to be overwhelming, you know, because of I follow my favorite writers, and I feel like I know them.

And that I could

Okay.

Call up and be like, hey, Lucy Scarr. Can you take a picture of my cat? You know, that kind of thing. I mean, they're

Yeah. You feel very connected to that.

Yes.

I do. So when you know, I think as a writer, let's say, mostly anyone listening is probably has at least one out. I think a lot of us have heard the term like, you have to start marketing before or or find your audience before you finish the book. And back even back in 2017 when I finally hit publish, my whole brain was like, talk about what? You know?

Like and I went through several iterations of, like, what the writing process is like or whatever. I think it it was so difficult to figure out that they wanted to hear about me. But then that balance of, like, how much you post about your breakfast versus, like, what are you actually here for? So Yeah. How would you how are you guiding authors, you know, whether they're just writing their book now or they realize they have to go backwards

and start? Well, the going backwards is hard. I'm not gonna lie to anybody. When you are trying to develop an audience off of a book that's already finished Mhmm. It's really hard to gen your what's my word?

Generate. Generate. To generate enthusiasm and excitement because the thing is, you are it's you first. So I want to know about Kat. And I want you as a writer, First of all, you need to make sure you're appealing to your actual target audience and not just everybody in the world because that's not how it works.

And so you have to start working on the connection and you have to start with yourself because I'm not gonna buy your book. I'm buying cat.

Yeah. Yeah. And I won't forget that.

Yes. And I and writers most of most writers I worked with are introverted, so it's very difficult. One, them to believe that anybody cares about them, which is not true, or that, you know, they're like, well, what if, you know, my private life is my private life. And I was like, that's fine. That is absolutely fine.

And that's part of your brand is the respect that like the one author I work with, he's like, my family did not ask for this. They did not ask to be, you know, have their father be in the limelight and all of these different things. He goes, I I will not put them anywhere near my marketing for my book. So I'm like, understood. And I respect that because you are a family man.

Mhmm.

But you also have this career that puts you in front of people. So

Yeah.

You know, all those everything that everybody does, their marketing has to be unique to them. Like, I would never market for you the way I would market for another writer because you're different. And when I work with writers, they look at me funny because I'm like, alright. We're gonna talk about your core values. And they're like, what?

Your core values, do you know what they are? Okay. And then it's like, why? Why do I need to because you wanna be authentic. You want people to know you, and your writing reflects, whether you realize it or not, who you are as a person, as a writer, because your experiences go into your books.

Yes.

So it's it's like, what do you write about and why? Why is that important? And why are you as a writer writing about these topics? Why are you choosing these things? Why are they important to you?

And so, yeah, I just I was working with the writer and she went through her core values and she's I'm like, I don't think that that this is necessarily one of your core values. Let's sit about let's sit and talk about this for a minute. And when you understand your core values and you understand who your ideal reader is, then you know how to message and use content that relate will be relatable for that reason.

So much sense, though. And especially if you look at what you write because it's I don't know who it was, but years ago, somebody was like, what is the recurring theme you constantly write about? And your first answer as a writer it's so funny when you're coaching people, you hear this. It was my first answer, and it's now my client's first answer is everything. I write about everything.

And, like, no, you don't.

You don't.

You don't. You you go back and you look. And I realized I write always. There's always some element of a woman's past does not define her future. Like, if you can break it down to that, it doesn't it's, you know, it's not, like, specifically, you know, written in the book, but it's always that sort of thing.

So if you look back at your writing, what you've always loved writing about or, like, interested in or maybe the stories you're looking to read, usually, that's where you're gonna find your core values. So, like, when you're talking about core values, you're talking about more as a brand more than because it's almost like like you could pick out anything.

You know what I mean?

So how are you narrowing that down?

So when when I think of a core value and when I've gone through different coaching with outside coaches and we've discussed this, Your core values are yours. It's not what your mom and dad told you. It's not what society tells you. You look through a lens of in my soul.

Mhmm.

What makes my life fulfilling? What are the things I cannot live without?

Interesting.

And when you start thinking about it and then you start thinking, okay, and I use my son as an example a lot because one of the things that I always told him, which thank goodness he listened, is that, you know, trust and honesty.

Yeah. You

know, don't lie to yourself.

Yeah.

You know, I want to tell people the truth. I don't think we do anybody a service if we lie to them.

No.

And especially in a coaching situation.

And you're gonna get found out.

Yes. Exactly. And but, you know, I I always told them. I said, here's what I live by. If I look myself in the mirror and I go, that's not a good thing to do, then I know that I am not being true to what my values are, which are authentic and honest and to not, you know, be aware of how I feel and who I am and keep that self awareness and that authenticity to the front.

Because if I don't do that, I feel like crap.

Yeah.

Yeah. I don't feel good. And then I wonder why I don't feel good. And if I actually sit down and think about it, it's like, did I take that job because I really thought it was something I wanted to do? Or did I just want the money?

Now sometimes the money is all you can you know, you gotta do that. But you have to think about it. Like, why do I feel like this? Why? What is inside of me that's making me feel uncomfortable?

And if you're not comfortable with the decision, then it's not the right decision.

Not for you. Yeah.

Not for you. Right. Yeah. So I'm trying to teach raters to first understand themselves

Yeah.

And what they are putting out there to the world. And that doesn't mean you have to be you don't need a persona. You don't need any of that. If you choose to do that, that's certainly you know, you're free to do that. But when you really sit down and you think about why am I writing this?

Why is it so important? What messages do I see in here? And you will start to notice that, as you said, there'll be reoccurring themes, and those are coming from inside of you in the important parts of you that you're communicating with your reader because you want your reader to be transformed in some way.

Right.

Right. So, obviously, you know, as a woman and you as a woman, understand that I and I agree, your past does not define you. But you learn from it. Yeah. And so

All my characters learn from it.

Yeah. And so but that's the important thing. And that's where when you're talking to your readers or when you start developing your platform, however that's gonna be with your readers, that's what your readers wanna know.

Okay.

You know? So that and the taking the reader when you first start writing your book, one of the things I always say and this and this is where as a marketer and not necessarily a writer, I can back up and look at a big picture and say, okay, Kat. This is a great idea. What's your end game? What is going to be your thoughts for when this book is finished?

What do you want? And if you say, oh, I just wanna show it to my family. Okay. That's great. Or if I wanna be traditionally published, that's a whole different path.

I wanna publish indie, that's a whole different path.

Yeah.

And so nobody wants their work to be a product. And I but but it is. It will become a product, and it's very difficult to let go of it because it's your baby. Mhmm. And so it's hard to step back from it.

But then if you don't if you don't step back and look at where you want this book to go, the book is going nowhere.

It really won't go anywhere. Yep. No. And especially these days because a lot of people, especially, like, 40 and older over, we grew up in a completely different world where you pulled books off of the shelf because they they were the books that were there. Right?

Like, now we have Your

choices were limited. Yeah.

We have millions of books published every year, like, for better because I love being an indie author, and I don't have any gatekeeper. But for worse, because you are competing with amazing books, not so amazing books, and your book is somewhere in there, and people

have to find you.

And I love what you're saying is, like, they're they're looking for you. So, like, if I get a Nora Roberts notification, I don't never met her, but I know her as a writer. Right? Like, I know I'm gonna go buy that or I'm not gonna buy that, whatever, you know, people like. So, really, we are selling a we're not selling.

We're like, we have to get to know them or, like, at least that they can feel like they know us. Right? I mean, we feel like we go to Taylor Swift.

Oh, yeah. Well, she would come and have dinner with me. I know she would because that's I think she would love me. She would be we'd be besties. I could be your grandmother.

I'll knit or something. No. I don't knit. But you have to, really think of it as the connection and people need to know, like, and trust you. And they can't do that just because you produced a book.

Yes. It's a

wonderful thing. I mean, to me, anybody that can write the end and you have written a book, good, bad and different, but you have finished it.

I mean, it's amazing.

That's huge. But it's more than that, you know.

Yeah.

There's there's many layers to this and how it works. And, knowing your audience and letting your audience see, you know, I just think it's so funny. I am a huge Lucy Score fan. I love her. And she's just a nut ball.

She she's just she's you know, here's a picture of me sitting on the couch. I'm supposed to be writing, but I'm eating a taco. And then I'm gonna eat some ice cream because I can't write another word.

Yeah.

I'm so tired. I'm I'm stuck. And then people start responding to her. Oh, well, you know, what you should do is blah blah blah blah blah blah. You know, have you go take a walk.

It'll come back to you. And all of a sudden, she's getting support and comments

from

the people that are reading her books. And I know that as a as a reader myself, if there are authors I follow and they recommend another writer, I will go straight to that writer.

Mhmm.

And that's where I have seen a change, and I love this change. I have seen more collaboration and more sharing in the publishing industry since indie publishing because we all know you're not on an island. You can't be.

And you can't produce

enough books. But you write in silence, but you can't be alone.

Okay.

Yeah. You know, you need people to support you and that's a big part of what I try to get the the endpoint for the writers I'm working with. It's like, we need to set up a network. Yes. We're looking for your audience, but we also need you to have a network of other writers and people who can help you.

And when you all work together, if you're in a group and there's 20 writers in there, and you're getting ready to publish, and you say, can you share this? Okay. Look at what you've just done.

Yeah.

You've got 20 people, 20 different platforms sharing the stuff, and there's plenty of readers to go around. You don't have to

Exactly. But you also have to be that person that's contributing. So if you don't have Mhmm.

If you

don't have a platform, if you haven't done any work to find any readership to to share their book when the time comes. And there there's where it gets a little Mhmm. We're also focused, I feel like, sometimes, which is not a bad thing. You have to finish the book. Right?

Like, you have to keep going. You have to finish the book, especially if you have already gotten the first one and you're, you know, and, like, you're crazy. And a lot of times you have kids or partners or whatever. So, but you still kind of I tell some people sometimes if you think of it as, like, contributing to the indie author group, are you more likely to do it? Like, sometimes we're more likely to do it for others than we are for ourselves

Yes.

Even if it benefits yourself. But to be the person that somebody comes to and says, if Lucy Skor came to me and asked me to share her book, I'd be like, I can write on. You know? Like, absolutely. But I would want there to be an audience there.

Right? I don't want to like you said, don't I don't wanna lie and be like, yeah. I got a 100 people on Instagram. I can share that too. You know?

That's pretty much zero.

Yeah. And so, yes, there is a responsibility. Every writer has a responsibility. If you are trying to meet a goal.

Mhmm.

And you want to be a responsible citizen in this literary world.

Right.

And there's always work involved. It is not freebie in any way, shape, or form. And just as it's hard to write, it could be hard to market. If your mindset's not right and you are afraid or overwhelmed, that's not how to market. You can't do it from that that standpoint.

So that's another thing I work on with, writers is, like, let's look at what what do you think a successful marketing strategy looks like?

Okay.

And they're like, well, I have a bazillion, you know, people on TikTok. Okay. Well, are they your ideal reader? I will. Yeah.

Let's be really specific and very, niched with what you're looking at. Now, your audience can increase and it can expand. Say, for instance, you are writing contemporary women's fiction and then you go, you know what? I'm going into, like, romantacy. Mhmm.

So things will change, right, in who you market. But your core values and who you are do not change.

Yes. Yes.

And if you are really understanding of why you're doing what you're doing, then that comes through. And, honestly, people are just tired of the crap. Yeah. I want a I want a writer that says, you know what? I can't do this today.

I really can't. I just I have nothing left. I'm empty. I'm not sure what to do. I'm gonna back off, and I'm telling you I'm gonna back off.

You're not gonna hear from me for a week. Whatever. People automatically do want to help. They do. It's our nature.

So that's that's the other thing is that you we're afraid to ask.

Yeah. We are. Yeah.

And and I think particularly as women, I I'm only speaking for myself, but I know that I was taught growing up, stay in the background, don't put yourself forward, do not ever blow your horn because that's so unattractive in a southern woman. And it's like, but but I didn't nope. Mm-mm. It compliments Yeah.

You let other people blow toot your horn except if no one knows.

Yes. Nobody's nobody's tooting my horn because nobody knows what I'm doing. Right?

So Yes. And that's that is a, like, a deep psychological problem of, like, well, I think they should just buy my book. You're like but the reality is if no one knows it's there.

That's right. And we we've seen it. We've we've experienced it firsthand when someone works so hard and they think that hard work is enough. And, well, maybe in the world, it should be enough, but it's just not sometimes. And it's very hard to tell people that.

It's not an easy thing to tell people that this thing that has come from so deep within you is now going to be something that you have to look at like a product. Yeah. And it's just like when you sell a house. They're They're not gonna like your furniture. They're not gonna like your colors.

They're and it's like you've gotta step back from that and and be realistic about what's gonna happen.

Yes. Yeah. A whole different cap to wear.

Right? Yes. It's a different it's a different hat, but it's also, the the overwhelm part of it is, I think, because you're looking around and you see all these people that you assume are so successful because they're on Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, but what's the context? And are they really reaching the people they need to reach? And do you have to do all of that?

No.

I constantly ask that. So I, like, I think the more you can niche, the slower you can grow because Mhmm. I have done all the things. I have had to purge my mailing list because I was paying for people who were not clicking, who were not buy. It the number looked great.

Mhmm. You know, especially when I was people would ask me, can you share this? Oh, you have 6,000 people that that you have 10,000 people. Behind the scenes, you go, no. This thing needs to be purged down because

Yeah.

If I if nobody's clicking, then, you know, I'd rather have 3,000 who click, who open.

And I think too that people think I've got no place to start.

Okay. So where did I start?

That's not true either. Okay. So I I tend to like marketing when it's more organic. I think that each writer, if they look at what they're comfortable with and what they can do because you know what? The thing about marketing, it has to be consistent.

And you can't keep up the pace or you can't keep up with 10 different channels that you're trying to pursue. You're not you're you're getting nowhere.

So Oh, no. You'll you can drive yourself insane.

Yeah. You can drive yourself insane. And all of a sudden, you're like, I can't afford this. Like and because first of all, you don't have to have a lot of money to do marketing. You really don't.

Oh, that's an interesting little point there. Okay.

I mean, let's think about it. If you are right? I'm moving to a new town. Right? I don't know anybody.

I'm I am myself thinking, how do I promote my business?

Mhmm.

I'm going to the library, and I'm offering, you know, two free one hour long courses on writing.

Mhmm.

And I'm gonna talk about book coaching Because I want to, one, be part of my community. But, two, I have to tell people what I do. Right? And so you go where books are. I go into I, I saw that someone was, they're opening up an indie bookstore, and and they were like, we need ideas.

I said, would you would it benefit you if you had a writing coach come in and do three free sessions for you, half an hour each or whatever? And they're like, yeah. And I'm like, awesome. I'll do that. Because I'm talking about what I love.

Right? It's what I

That's easy.

And that's how you one person in that group Mhmm. Says, oh, gosh. I love Kat. Let me tell my friend about Kat.

Mhmm. Yep. That's what you need to get the And that's what you need. Out there somehow. Right?

So

You do. But you start with whoever you know. And that's the other thing is that we tend to not look right in front of us for what we need. We tend to look this way because we're thinking big. Gotta get big.

New York Times best selling author book. Okay. You've got to start small. Start with what you know. And you have to figure out, you know, do I if I'm writing Christian romance and I'm a member of a church, does it not make total sense to say, hey.

I'm writing a Christian romance. Would y'all like to hear about it? Could we do, like, a round table, or would you be willing to share this? And people are like, yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

That's your first step, and it's that easy. And it doesn't have to cost you anything. So that's that's one of the things I've I I love watching people go, and you just did it.

Yep.

Oh, that's organic marketing. And that is, I think, as we watch all of these social media channels and how crazy they are and how big they are, and it's so hard to create a presence. Mhmm. And and, honestly, they're not reputable. A lot of them are not reputable.

And it's like, you're just scrolling, scrolling, scrolling, and we're we all do it because I, you know, I

Yes. I have never bought a book from Instagram, I will say. I have from TikTok.

Yeah. But, you know, if that's your platform, then that's your platform. That's what you choose as what you're comfortable with, but you don't have to. And I noticed, especially when I'm working with older writers, they're like, I I hate Facebook and I hate this. And it's like, okay.

Let's see once we have developed and and you understand your core values, where does that fit in with your marketing?

Right. Right.

Where does that work for you? Because, again, if you don't like it and you're not comfortable with it, you're not gonna do it, and you're just gonna be wasting time. You're just gonna frustrate yourself. So

So then you're you're saying, like, if you're if you find your core value so there's a lot of places that are, I would say, authors hear about. Right? So we need our newsletter or Substack or social media. Mhmm. You know, TikTok became really big last year.

So everyone's always the shiny penny. Right? They're always running towards

towards us. The shiny penny. Yeah.

But what I'm hearing from you is if you find your core values, you're going to be able to better fit in where that audience is.

Why are you trying to be a TikToker if you hate it? You don't like to be in front of people. You don't wanna be on camera. Well, just listen to that. That's like, okay.

That's not gonna work. But you're gonna give it you're going to try, try, try, and then try it in the corner because you like

Well, like you said, it's almost lying to yourself. Like, you're you're trying to be someone who's interested in this.

Right. You know? I'm not a huge fan of Facebook. I I

It's getting really boring.

Yeah. And and so I you know, people be like, well, you're a marketer. You're not on Facebook. Okay? I'd rather talk to people.

I would rather, like I said, go to my library or, do something like this. Look and research and find out where where are the people that might need my services. Because when you look at it in a way of, at least for me, I am trying to contribute. I am trying to provide a service that benefits someone and has value. Yeah.

And that, you know, that's going to work for them. And but I'm not gonna get on Facebook and go, hey. Yeah. That's the perfect book coach you've ever seen in your life because I'm not comfortable with it. Yeah.

But I am comfortable sitting in a room with 10 women and talking about books and talking about things we like and sharing experiences because that to me is how I connect with people.

And, honestly, that that 10 those 10 women are probably more than really who scrolled past you because this whole views thing, I don't know who actually viewed anything because I don't know how how they, like, determine how many seconds that counts, whatever. So and I I see a lot of people. And I personally enjoy TikTok and Instagram that I've niched down to only those two. I can't stand any of the x threads. Like, everyone gets out of control.

Yeah. Right? But and I love the little trends. I love being part of some of the trends. But in the last few months, I've started to really try to step back and analyze them.

And while the trends are fun, like you were just saying, are they reaching my audience? You know? So how can I move this? So how much do people if they actually do enjoy social media, what how much of the trendy stuff versus, you know, the other stuff? I'm not even sure what the other stuff would be.

I tend to think and maybe this is just my my personality. I'm trends are great and they're fun. But if I am developing a core group of ideal readers

Great.

They don't care about the trends.

Yeah.

They're not following me so they can see me walk around with a book on my head jumping up and down to a certain song. Okay? That's

Yeah. Yeah.

Because that's not who I am. And if you're following someone because you like what they stand for or you like the way they speak or you see, like the universal values and topics that we all have experienced, that's more to me a marketing connection that's organic and real and not so much, oh, let me go put on a costume and pretend I'm I don't know. Maybe I'm gonna pretend I'm Taylor Swift. That's gonna give me a lot of readers, isn't it? Yeah.

No.

No. Okay.

So you have to look at it. You you have to research. You have to understand those core pieces. And for me, in in my coaching, it's your author brand, which is you. Mhmm.

Not what you write. It's you. It's you. And then it becomes your writing because once people start following you and you're taking them on this journey through the writing of this book, and that's why it's important to start when you start writing. Because this is what you're talking about.

You're talking about things that are important to you. You are talking about this book. And I one thing I love as a reader is when I get asked questions by an author. So if I'm in a Facebook group and the author says, well, okay, Megan Quinn did it the other day, and I was just so excited because she had her new Christmas book coming out. She had three different covers she was looking at.

And so she was showing them, and then she asked us to vote. And I'm like You need to be part of it. The great one. I've for the green one. You know?

Because And

if and if she picks it, you feel like

I want you to pick some stuff. She didn't pick the green one, but it's the one that's coming out for at the Walmart. So guess where I'm going to get green one at the

Right. Oh, well, that was a that was an ingenious. I bet she already had them picked up, but that was

genius. But that's that's alright. So if I ask you the question, what do people want to feel?

Mhmm. What how They wanna be part of something, I think.

They wanna feel valued.

Yeah. Yeah.

I want you I wanna hear you. I want you to hear me.

Yep.

So that to me is that's how I choose people to follow and to read. One, the book's gotta be good. And I've read so many that are not. And I just so badly my my my writing coaching makes me wanna call them up and go, I know you don't want a writing coach, but just if you could have taken this

Your premise was great. Can we

do that? There's and I'm reading a book now that I actually paid for. It was in Kindle Unlimited because I read so much and I like to read different authors just to see how the writing changes. And this writer had a great story, but I got so slogged down by, like, the tenth chapter. I I couldn't finish it.

I'm like, it makes me sad because there's talent here. It's a good story, but I don't care how many times she goes fishing and hates it. I mean

I know. Nope. Nope.

Yep. But but, yeah, I it it's it's connection. It's your brand. It's understanding your audience, and it's how you message your audience that reflects your brand. Okay.

Right?

Okay.

So I always know what what when I look at Nora Roberts, I know what to expect. She does not disappoint. She goes off in all different directions, but I know that I'm going to get a really well written, strong female character who has dealt with adversity, all these different things, magic, whatever, which I love those two. But I know that I'm gonna get a really good quality book because I know what she puts into her writing. And I know that she's been doing it for twenty five years.

You know? So, that is how you create your base and continue to grow because people will recommend you, and that's what you want. The referral is the best form of marketing in the world.

Right. Right. Right. So I am I'm hearing a little bit from you of, like, we are the brand, which I think most of us hear, and then we're like, okay. But but what I really hear is we don't have to to stick only to talking about writing and books.

Like, we have to talk we have to find our core values and then maybe find the things that you are willing to share with the world. Like, I don't share my my kids with the world.

I don't I understand.

I would either. But you're saying post so your post or your newsletters, whatever, doesn't always have to be about writing. Like, that's not everything about you that you're willing to share.

Because first of all, you are a writer. You can tell stories. Yeah. And that's what it is. Right?

So I was reading the newsletter the other day by an author, and she was talking about and I was cracking up. I was like, this is so funny. She was talking about trying to put in a koi pond and then having to sit out there because there was a bird that kept wanting to kill her fish. And she's like, this is random, but this is real life. And and it's something that I don't think writers think about.

They think when they put out it better, it should be, you know, oh, I'm gonna launch my book. I'm gonna launch my book. I'm gonna launch my book. I'm gonna

launch my book. Okay. And, honestly, I I it makes so much sense. But as you're talking, I'm realizing it's so easy for us to get into that black hole of, I have to write a newsletter. What do I write about?

When you think you have a lot of rights about, you know, like Yeah. Your your koi pond or whatever. Like so just finding those things that you're willing to share. And I think it's the overwhelm. I think you're right.

That really that really tricks the mindset.

It's too and then one writer that I'm in the Facebook group with, which I love, every Sunday, well, she has here's the ultimate, is that you are a writer. You indie, traditional, whatever. But you have created a fan base that does your marketing for you.

Yeah. I mean, that is the ultimate goal.

And that is the ultimate. And I the one group that I'm in that I I love, it's like every Sunday, what's for dinner? Don't forget dessert. And we all like, I'm having this, this, and this. And then then you see, well, do you have a recipe for that?

Sure. Let me share that with you.

Right. Right. Right. So they're becoming a community.

In that one moment, you have just found someone else

Right. Right.

That likes what you like, that is attracted to the types of stories you're attracted to. And that's what I mean when I say it doesn't have to be, I need a huge marketing corporation, and they're gonna do a strategy for me. It's gonna cost me $25,000 It probably won't go anywhere. And it probably won't go anywhere. And see, that's the thing is that people also the other point, I could talk about this all darn day.

We'll have to have you back for sure.

So a strategy comes before a plan.

Okay.

Makes sense? Right? Yeah. So the strategy is these are the things that I am capable of doing. These are the things that fit into my writing life.

This is the time I can devote to marketing. This so this is your strategy that I want to have a 100 readers. And remember, marketing is a marathon. It is not bam. It happens overnight.

It doesn't. You there's nurturing that has to happen. It doesn't have to be bad nurturing. Like, it's killing me to do this. But, you know, you look at your strategy, what you wanna do, and you can do that in a I like people to use a three month increment.

So, you know, I'm gonna for this three months, I'm going to do x, y, and z. I'm sticking to my email list, and I'm sticking to LinkedIn. Whatever.

Right.

And that's that's my strategy. My plan is actually, what am I doing each week? What is the content gonna be? What do I wanna share? And that's another thing I work with writers is, like, let's take your content, which you probably already have enough for three years of marketing, and let's put it in one place that's accessible.

Make your little buckets. Right?

So

this is your writing part that actually talks about your craft. And then maybe this is, something that is about your specific book. And then over here, you might have something like anecdotes or how I found my setting for my book or whatever. And so you just keep filling these buckets in one location. And when it's time to plan for the three months and you go, okay.

I wanna talk about my my writing journey. I wanna talk about, how I became a writer

Mhmm.

Where that went and what that looked like. And then I also want to talk to them about trying to develop this character that's really given me a fit.

Mhmm.

And so there's three topics for one month, and I'm going to use this content that's long form content. Like, if you do blogs or something, you can take that, and that could be a 100 different messages. And you also have to remember that you can use the same thing, word it differently, and use it 10 different times, and people

will know. Make them apprehensions.

Yes. You have to

Mhmm.

You have to be consistent. And you have to realize that the first three times a person reads it, they're probably not gonna really get it. And then the fourth time or something's gonna stick in their mind, they'll be like, oh. And writers go, I don't wanna bother anybody. It's like, you don't wanna it's It's like, stop.

That and that's the mindset. So you can see there's a lot of different things that go to figuring out what's gonna work for you. But the biggest thing is it's simple. It's sustainable for you, and it's authentic. And that's why it's your marketing strategy, Kat, not Teresa's or Vans.

Right?

Or Dan's because they're gonna be totally different. Yeah. And I think that the being in a support group or be and you have to be vet the groups you go into. Right? Because people will break

you. Yes. They They think

it's and they think it's fun, and that's not the type of group you wanna be in. But Or

they've been jaded because they didn't have a strategy, and now they're just gonna tell you not to bother. And

Yes. Don't do it. Don't it's like, you know, okay. Let's just be let's use common sense in our marketing.

Mhmm.

What can I do?

Yeah.

What will fit into my writing style? What fits into my life? How much time You know, time is a big thing. So if you say and I don't know how many hours a day you write or how you do your writing schedule. But if you say, I write two hours a day, and I write only Monday through Friday.

So I would look at that and be like, alright. So can you give a half an hour to marketing? Or can you, you know, take fifteen minutes to jot down thoughts in this Monday through Friday thing? And then how do we develop that into something that will work for you that is not painful? Because

Yes. Yes. Honestly, the more you the more you're laying this out, I really think that marketing can become fun. Like, hear me out, writers. It can actually become very fun because you're becoming very comfortable with a book that you spent a lot of time with that you want people to read, and that's okay to want people to read it.

And the more that you have a strategy and you have somebody helping you figure this out so if they're working with you, like, it it takes away the overwhelm, which adds the like, notches the fun back up.

Fun. Yeah.

And then you can find the the little places that you're doing well in. You know, maybe it's threads, maybe it's LinkedIn, maybe it's Facebook, maybe it's Instagram, whatever.

Yeah. But you gotta be willing to test too.

Oh, you gotta test.

Not everything works. Yes. And that's marketing does require pivots sometime, and I don't like that word. But, you know, you have to be realistic and go, okay. I'm gonna look and see, how many people signed up for my newsletter when I did x for three months.

True. True. True.

Wasn't very much.

But if you don't have a strategy, how do you even know where they came from?

How would you yes. And that's And

I'm talking to myself right now. I go into strategy, and then I drop off.

And then well, because then you go, I know what I want. I don't know how to get it.

Yeah. That's so true.

I don't know what my first step

That's where the plan comes. Right?

That's where the plan comes in. And that's where accountability, but you have to be realistic.

Yeah.

You're not gonna do it if you hate it. You're not gonna do it if you're not comfortable with it. You're not gonna do it if you haven't thought really specifically about what what can I do? What's what fits in with my life? And what are my expectations?

Because if you think that you're going to create a strategy and create a plan in three months and then suddenly a thousand books are gonna fall off the shelf

It's not gonna happen. No.

I hope. I wish. I wish. But Right.

You know? But I that's what I love about you too is that you're very realistic. I'm very realistic too with my but I I heard something the other day of, like, I just need to add 1%. I need to be 1% better today. And I think that's a great like, I need to do 1% more.

The more you do something, the more comfortable you are. Like, case in I used to sweat during podcast interviews. You know? Just be, like, heart racing. The more you do it, the more comfortable.

The more you do social media, the more comfortable. The more marketing you know? So just all those little things, it it's not gonna come right away. Lit like, really, I don't think anyone's bought a book from my social media, but I can now find the fun in connecting with people and seeing how people respond. Right?

So just getting that little bit

more. And writers, you're creative. You are a natural creative. So take those ideas that you have and make them into something that that will work for you. And it's just,

But I think it's easier when we work with someone like you than being in our heads. You know what I mean? Like, writers are really in their heads.

It is hard to get out of your head.

I And it is hard to be like, oh, it's that easy? Like, I remember watching my mother-in-law make Spanish recipes, and I always thought that really nutritious, great food would be, you know, Michelin star kind of Yes. And I go, oh, it's that easy? And I think that's the same thing with marketing. If if we have the mother-in-law, Becky Grogan, telling us, it's okay.

I hear you. Mother-in-law. Exactly.

Oh, so I just

I really I I can't stand when people have a misconception about something and it's holding them back. This is your Yeah. This is the what the main character has that they can't get over because they're thinking wrong about something. And until they get their mind straight and understand that it doesn't have to be as bad as you think it's gonna be. Yes.

And you don't have to spend $10,000 And you don't have to do all of these things and be perfectly skinny and have great air. Nobody cares about it. Yeah. And really, I want real people.

Yeah.

I want I always have held writers in very high esteem because I just value and am amazed at what the idea and then all the way through to the end of the book. And when you see what turns out, I'm like it's like it is like having a baby. But I I really want to see writers be able to feel kind of that way about their marketing.

Okay.

Yeah. Fun. Yes. Let it be fun. Enjoy it and learn from it and understand it's there's no perfection necessary.

Yes. Oh, I love that.

And the size that fits you is not gonna fit the other person. You cannot look at someone else and go, oh, well, I have to do what she does because, well, no. You don't because you're you're not her.

Yes. Yes. That is, like, that is so number one. So where can people find you if they're like, yes. I mean, honestly, I think that it's better money spent working with someone like you than some people come on to the podcast having spent $20,000 on a PR agent.

And I and I know because I talked to them, it doesn't really move the needle as much. What moves the needle is what you're saying is being yourself, going out there and getting people to know who you are, and then they're gonna buy your book.

Yeah. That's it's pretty simple when you look at it that way, but that's true. There's there's several components. And if you look at it and are comfortable with it, then you're most likely gonna be successful if you start at the right time because that's crucial.

Okay.

Just understanding that it's not when you write the end. It's when you're at the beginning.

Yeah.

So that you can move people along with you and have them expecting the book that's coming out and looking for the next one.

Yes. Absolutely.

That because that's what you want. But if anybody wanted to find me, I am at, info@beckythebookcoach.com.

That's easy. We'll have the we'll have the email and the links in the show notes for sure. And I just think it is the one sticking point for writers that I there are so many good books like you said, and what I want is for them to be able to see the way forward because as the world changes, we you know, even if you're traditionally published, you still have to get out there. And like you said, it doesn't have to be hard, but it feels hard. So we just need someone like Becky to tell

us. But, you know, my one thing is if I ask you if I'm a reader and I'm like, okay, Kat. What's my experience gonna be with your books?

Oh, that's a hard question.

And if you can't answer it right off the top of your tongue, then you're not connecting with who you are and what your readers are going to get from you.

Okay. So we're gonna have everyone contemplate that, and then they're gonna contact you and tell them tell you what that they know. I know. I figured it out. And you know what?

It does it also doesn't have to be figured out right now. I think that is something that you reflect on and you try it, and then you go, okay. I gotta tweak that actually. Actually, this is what it's something that you know, it's not a math test. It is, like, figuring out what you're doing.

Right?

Reflection reflection and research. And the best way, you know, find who's successful that's like you. What are they doing? Does that resonate with you? Is it something I'm not saying do that, but I'm just saying if you're trying to figure out a next step, who's really good at it?

I'm not gonna go and, you know, look at Bobo down the street, doesn't sell any books. I'm gonna go look at, you know, JK Rowling. That's who

I'm gonna look at.

Yep. Yep. Yep. So there's lots of things you can do. And my greatest wish is that the writers that work with me no longer need me.

Because then that means that, you know, it's like they they're understanding what they can do and how to do it, and they're not scared of it anymore.

Yes. So

kick me to the curb.

I love that. Well, thank you, Becky, for coming on. I I'm sure people are gonna relisten to this and write down some notes. And

I'm grateful that you had me on here. It's very, very enjoyable to talk with you, Kat. You're wonderful.

We'll definitely have you back on because I'm sure marketing will pivot as much as we hate that word.

Let's talk about stupid marketing terms that don't mean anything.

Thank you so much.

Alright.