Ep 298 Craft and Connect: Your Marketing Pillars

Welcome to Pencils and Lipstick. This is a podcast for indie authors. I'm Cat Caldwell, novelist, short story writer, and book coach. Here on Pencils and Lipstick, we're obsessed with bold things story, and it is my goal to bring you the writing tips that you need to make your novel come to life. So we are here for our first marketing hour.

We still don't have a title, Becky. I know.

So I'm drawing a blank, so it is what it is.

It's well, the monthly marketing hour we're gonna go. So this is our very first full episode, and we are like, if if people don't know you, you are Becky Grogan. Where where can they find you?

They can find me at beckythebookcoach.com.

I love you.

I wanna make it easy because I can't remember either.

You're like, what's my name? Beckythebookcoach.com. All obviously, all the links will be in the show notes. But today, we're gonna start at the beginning of marketing because we are authors primarily, and you are gonna help us. Where do we where do we go when we when we want to start talking to people about our books?

Well, I always and you'll hear me say this a lot. You have to develop audience before income. Alright? So you have to start

You're already making us uncomfortable. Sorry.

Well, what I do wanna let me say this first then. Marketing is not magic.

Okay.

There is nothing marketing wise that you can accomplish with a little bit of help and guidance. And I said this before, one of the reasons I love working with writers so much is because, well, besides you have fascinating minds and you can make these wonderful stories and that just blows me away because that's a talent that I don't really have. But writers have the ability to tell story, and that's what marketing is. When you look at marketing, you are, as a marketer, telling a story to a prospective client. You are not selling it.

You're giving them information. So basically, what you're doing is you're the you're connecting with your reader or you're a bridge between yourself and your reader, and that's all it is. And if you simplify it down and stop being afraid of it because it can be really scary. There's lots of buzzwords out there. People make it sound like you have to have some kind of magical power in order to succeed in marketing, and that's not true.

So my goal in my coaching is to make it practical. Use common sense. Yeah. Make it practical. I I started because I was really going into romance.

That was my first initial business plan with my coaching, and I was like, alright. I'm gonna do the KISST method. KISST, get it? K a I s s t? KISST.

I thought it was kinda cute. So anyway, keep it simple, sustainable, and true. And by that, what I mean is you don't have to do all those things. You have to do something that you can sustain in your life because nobody is doing just one thing.

Right? Yeah. True. Yeah.

We are in so many different spaces during the day and in our lives. And so you have to be reasonable about what you can sustain, and you have to be authentic. So that's what the true is. It's like, first of all, be true to yourself, understand who you are, understand why you're doing what you're doing.

Mhmm.

And then that's the basis. So it doesn't have to be all the bells and whistles. It doesn't have to be so overly complicated. You don't need an agency. Now I would say if you become, you know, like Lucy Skor or Megan Quinn, yeah, you might need an agency.

You might need a team.

And that's a good thing because at that point, you can afford it. You know? If you want somebody to just make it over.

Who you are, what you're doing, you have something established, and you know how to guide them, I would say. Like, one of my I still think one of my biggest mistakes was getting a social media person without knowing what I wanted them to do. My whole thought was, like, just do the social media, which I'm sure that you're like, ugh. And that's exactly what happened to my social media. It just tanked because, a, it wasn't really authentic to me.

It was just pushing they tried to make stories, I guess, about my books, but that's all it was. It gets really boring. That's not what social media is.

But how can you direct them if you don't know yourself?

Exactly. That's that was my point. Thank you.

Yeah. So that's that's what I don't and this is you know, people are like, what? I said, I don't do marketing for writers. I do not make posts. I do not write blogs.

Right. I teach you to take the skills that you have

Yeah.

And use them for your own marketing. And, honestly, just like anything, it takes practice, and you will get better and better and better. But again, simplifying it. Why does it have to be so complicated?

I don't know. They make it feel complicated.

They do and I really don't like that. That bothers me and having been a marketer and a marketing strategist for so many years, and yes, I will say thirty five, forty years, maybe a little bit more, but I don't wanna get too detailed about that. But anyway, it's it's it's one of those things that's frustrating. It's like, why does there have to be this mystique? Marketing women dress beautifully.

They have, you know, really big, beautiful cars and it's all It's like, no, no. We're normal people. We're doing the normal thing. As a writer, this is part of your journey if you want to publish your book. And again, this is where it gets uncomfortable for writers is that you have to be able to and it might take a while.

I'm not gonna say it's gonna be like instantaneous, but you have to sit down and go, what is my plan for this book? What do I want to do? Okay. Do I really want to be traditionally published? Do I want to independently published?

Or is this story writing? I'm writing it because I have to get it on paper. And once I've done that, I'm satisfied.

Yeah.

So those are completely different paths. Right? I mean, I have stuff that I write. And I'm not a great writer. I've done one nonfiction book, but it's, it's one of those things where I write things down because they have to come out of my head.

Right? Because I feel it, and it's like this has to be written down. Will anybody ever see it?

No. We all have those.

No. But,

but But marketing does come to the people who decide, at least at one level. I want others to read this.

Yes. So if that is your path, if you say, I I am writing this book because I feel strongly about this story. I know it's a good one. We've talked about in our conversation before. It's transformative in some way for the reader.

Then you need to, like, step back and go, I'm gonna try for traditional or I'm gonna I know for sure I'm gonna do indie because there's lots of different things that are involved in that. And

Is the marketing different, Per, do you think?

No. The marketing is not different, other than if you are fortunate enough to get a traditional contract and you have an agent, there will be some marketing done for you. But I think that has decreased over the years as the marketing as the industry has changed a lot. So traditionally published authors, unless they are, like, consistently bestseller bestseller bestseller, they have to do their own marketing too. Because, for instance, if you have a book that's coming out and it's being published by Simon and Schuster, are they even still in business, but that's who came to my mind?

Then they're gonna say this book is coming out on this date. It could take two years to publish it, and we are going to do a three stop book tour.

Three stop. Like, three stops.

And we'll do a public relation. We'll do a news release. We will do a press release. I'm sorry. And we will, you know, put it on our social media.

And you'd be surprised how little that is.

And that is not.

Yeah. And what I've heard from a lot of my people that I've coaching have decided to go traditional is the agents want to see their social media platform or their newsletter platform platform and what are they doing? Because I think it actually go it's not so much that they know how to market, but that they're willing to be out there as well, you know, whether it's on Substack or whatever. There is something they're looking for something. Like, so it has to be you've got

They're looking to see if you if there's an interest in your book. Is there an interest in your work? Have you And if you can't created yeah. Have you created this audience that's waiting for this book? Have you connected with readers who are your ideal reader?

And Most of us haven't. That's the problem.

Yeah. And that's that's the that's part of it. So it's it's a step by step process. It is not, I'm gonna do everything all at one time. And if I do this, like, for two two months and they see me every day, then I'm done.

No. It doesn't work that way. I wish. It just doesn't work that way. But to me, that just saying that gives me anxiety.

Yeah. Because I'm like, how can you? You can't possibly squish everything into a small timeframe. It takes time. It's it's baby steps.

It's, developing and understanding what you're doing, why you're doing it and who it's for. Because we all love and and, you know, Kat and I laugh about this. It's like, who are you writing for? Well, everyone's gonna love my book. Yeah.

That's what everyone not.

Well, even saying, like, even narrowing it down to a well, contemporary romance readers. You go, that's still millions of people. Yeah. Right? And so the that's where I would get really frustrated because they're, like, niche down.

And I get it, but it was just like, well, contemporary romance readers, the, you know, closed door, still huge. Great.

Yeah. And and that's one. So what we're gonna the way we're gonna do this, because I can sit here and talk forever, and Kat's supposed to give me some kind of sign to shut up. But the way I work and this is just my this is my personal approach and everybody has one and and there's so many good ways to do this. This is what I'm comfortable with and this is what I believe.

So the pillars that I use when I'm teaching writers to market for themselves is your author brand, which just saying that makes people go, I don't have a brand. It's like, wait. Wait. Wait. Let's just again, let's don't panic.

Let's step back and understand what that means. And then you have to identify that reader. And you have to get really, into understanding that person and who they are and and why you are appealing to them. And then once you find out where they are, where they hang out, and, yes, it does take some research. It's not like you go, oh, all contemporary romance readers.

Yeah. No. That might be a place to start, but you gotta you gotta just really start narrowing things down. And I think I think there's a piece of that that is just total fear. That if I don't say that my market for my book is huge, I'm gonna miss everybody that wants to buy it.

And it's really actually the opposite. If you really find your ideal reader and you start to connect with them, that's going to continue to grow. And you know, we we talk about several different romance writers that we follow and some of them have this incredible fan base that does their marketing for them. You know, I think that

that sticker lady that you did.

Yes. It's so, Debony Perry is a romance writer, and I follow her. I think she's really cool. Writes good books. And, she put out this thing.

She does a lot of, series where, like, one is set in Eden. That's the name of the town, and it's I can't remember if it's in Colorado or someplace else. Anyway, so she's got, like, five different stories, maybe six in this series. And so she was coming out with a new book or she was republishing or something, and she said, if I I need peep I need readers to sign up to get these stickers. I have stickers that pertain to the books.

And I will send them to you. And if you would, take them to your local bookstore, slide the stickers into one of the books, and then let let people know where it is. And I was like That's so brilliant. Pick me. Pick me.

Pick me. So

Oh, and it was a contest to be chosen?

No. It was just like I figured we all tend to, and I'm guilty of this as well, when you love an author, you tend to kind of put them up on this pedestal like, Oh, but we're all real people. Right? And so we need to think of it in those terms. So I was like

brilliant idea.

I know. But I was like, oh, she's not gonna send me any stickers. Well, I filled out the form. I got my stickers. I went to the, Barnes and Noble.

And and and then I when I'm in there, I'm like, somebody already put stickers in a book. Who did that? Oh, and then you wanted

to find that person.

Well, so then I'm go to another store and I put I'm doing that and I'm taking pictures and I'm saying where I am. All of a sudden, this and this is to me, this is the best organic marketing. I'm getting texts from people going, I live in Wilmington too. What when were you at the Barnes and Noble? And I'm like, really?

Do you like to read and so all of a sudden, not only had we done something for this author that we loved and it's going all over her Facebook pages, it's being reposted in all of this. We're starting to connect together. Yeah. As people who have that thing in common that we love reading her books. And of course, that means we love reading romance and blah, blah, blah.

So I actually did it twice for her. She called, she put another call out. That was so stinking fun. I felt important. Yes.

I really did. That's what we were doing. Important. And, you know, I'm in the Target and I'm I'm sliding the the sticker sheet in. I'm taking a picture and I'm taking pictures of her books.

And it it was like a field trip when I was in grade school. So much fun. And brilliant. Just brilliant. So I would be excited for

the author. She also felt important because quite honestly, that is a it's brilliant, but it's a little scary because there's I don't care how big you are. You're gonna go, what if no one fills out the form?

Yeah. You

know? But I mean, you're always gonna have that little doubt. So, like, to come together and be like like, you know, I don't know, a little army for romance. It was just so fun.

But that's that connection because you as a writer don't always know the value of your work.

Right.

But if a reader loves what you do, they're telling you the value that you bring. And so if you are able to connect with them, they might think, oh my god, Kat Caldwell, she's my favorite. She'll never talk to me. You would talk to them in a heartbeat. You would text them back.

You would do whatever and they'd be like, like, I'm a fan. I'm a superfan. And that's really, you know, I happen to think that romance readers are really, really loyal fans of the writers that they love. And again, when you're talking about expanding your reach and how you do this, when someone that I read recommends somebody else, then I immediately go get that book. Mhmm.

And so this is where that support within the community is really, really important. And we'll talk about that a little bit later. But the author brand is understanding who you are and why you're doing what you're doing. And then when you're identifying your audience that's how you are finding those readers that really want to connect with what you are writing. So it's you first, then you're building your audience, and then the third pillar is creating a strategy, which that's just a fancy word for a goal.

Okay. So your your big strategy, your umbrella strategy might be this year, I want to increase my followers. I want to get a thousand people following me.

Oh, so you're you're saying, like, I I need a strategy. We all need a strategy for, like, a a limited amount of time. This we're not going Well, I

think it's easier to do.

To get New York Times bestsellers.

Yes. That's a great goal. That it really is. But how are you gonna do that? Yeah.

I'm not saying you can't because you absolutely can, but it doesn't happen just because you say it. Right? Right.

It it happens because of the smaller steps too. That's what Yes. When I used to study all the mindset and the goals, like, I got it, but then when I realized, like, oh, but you actually need, like, the smaller goals too. I was like, why didn't anyone ever say that?

Well, you know, I I have a friend and he's always like, how do you eat an elephant, Becky? And I'm like, yes. I know. One spoonful at a time or forkful, whatever utensil you're using because I want to be I wanna be the New York Times bestseller. Yeah.

So you have to really be like, okay. Wait. Let's back off of this and let's look at what I like to break it down into the quarters of the year just because I come from a corporate marketing background and that that's three months is doable. Right? The other thing to understand about marketing is that you have to be able to shift and move and, I have to use this word pivot.

Oh, no.

I always think of friends, though.

That's such a COVID word.

Oh, really? I think of friends. Did you not see that one where they're putting the the oh, oh, you have to go find it. Where they're, moving the couch up to Ross's apartment and he kept saying pivot. Okay.

Now it'll change your your idea of pivot.

This is like, okay. So now I gotta go watch Friends. But no. So you have to be able I never watch shows when they're actually live. I always watch them, like, I binge watch them, like, five years later.

Later. Yeah. Four years later. I still you know, I can I can binge watch the Gilmore Girls a 100 times? I love that show.

Anyway, talk about good writing, but that's another topic.

Yeah. My kids are on that too. So we're looking at strategies. We're looking at yeah. Ninety days, right, is a quarter.

Yeah. So ninety days. So, you know, when you look at it I mean, in a in a larger setting, and hopefully, you would get to this point, you can plan a year out. And, really, that's your best strategy is to have a plan for a year, a strategy for the year. But I really think starting small is the way you need to go.

You need to understand it doesn't happen overnight. You don't have to do all of the things. You know, this is what and I think we've talked about this, Kat, because I'm not gonna we're not doing the throw Kat under the bus segment, but

But we can if you want.

But I think that Kat would have a lot to speak to you about when you want to ramp up your social media and all of a sudden you are posting every day and you're you're being consistent. But then you can't maintain that. And the reader doesn't understand the context with which you're trying to communicate because if they don't understand who you are and why you do what you do and what your message is and who you're trying to reach, you can throw things out there all day long. But you're causing frustration for yourself. People aren't understanding where you're coming from, what you're trying to tell them.

Mhmm. And are you actually telling the right people? So

Good questions.

Yeah. So, I mean, this is the other thing that people, I don't think I don't think we think about it. But you have to really you have to sit back and you have to reflect. Right? You're a writer.

You're good at coming up with ideas. You are good at thinking something through and taking an idea from an idea to a published work, to a book that says the end. Okay. And that's really what you're doing with your marketing. You it's a it's a it's a journey.

It's a process. It's a plan. Do you write a book in a month? No. No?

Alright. So

I'm like, I'm thinking. I'm sure there's someone out there that claims Oh, I'm sure there

are these there are people that write book. They write really, really fast, and that's wonderful. I but that's a whole different topic.

Somebody who's very, very established. And we're talking about people, like, whether you're like me and you just didn't do marketing for the longest time because you had no confidence and you had babies. And now you're Yeah.

Babies will get annoying. Yeah.

Or you're starting out, Yeah. You're not writing a book in a month. So no.

But I think the thing that I love about emerging authors is that they are just starting out. And so if you're starting out and you start out with good habits or or, you know, good balance in your life, understanding the reality of what you have resource wise, time, money, whatever to dedicate to marketing. Because it you you don't need to spend, you know, forty hours a month. You have to be realistic. And so when we get down to the strategy part of it, we'll talk a little bit more about that, about making it fit within your life.

But that is the consistency and the sustainability are the two things that I don't think writers think about. And they think it's gotta be all or nothing. You're out there tap dancing on TikTok, and you're doing this and doing that. And then I sold three books.

Yeah. Here you go. And I lost a thousand followers. What's happening?

And you're like, why? Why? And I did all the things. It's like, well, you know what? When we go back to the the author brand, are you supposed to be doing all those things?

Do they fit with what you believe? Do they fit with who you are as a person? Are you trying to make yourself into something that you're not?

Yeah.

And if you're uncomfortable doing something with marketing or marketing makes you feel, like, really cringy and have you researched it? Have you really thought about yeah. I don't wanna do TikTok. I don't wanna make videos. I'm not comfortable with that.

I love to write. I could do a blog. I could do a newsletter. I can you know, there's a lot of different things that are available, and doing everything to me would be a path to insanity.

And It is because I've tried that, and I literally felt like I was on a on a honestly, that was a great thing about COVID. I just stopped, and I was like, I can't because I was trying to do all the things. I've been everywhere. I've and I I like that I'm a trier. I I will try things out, the new thing, give it to me.

I'll try it. And now at least I'm old enough to be like, yeah. That's not for me at all. But but when you're talking about brand strategy and you're saying, like, choose the things that are good for you know, that you can keep up. Right?

If you if you don't wanna Yeah. So what if you're starting out in your author brand? What if you do choose some sort of social media

Mhmm.

But your whole life, all you've been doing on social media is what everyone does is throw up the kids' pictures, and I did that, and I went here. What how do you how do you pivot that on your author brand, or what are your ideas on that? Do you start a new one? Well, you know, like, what

Well, so in my opinion, for what it's worth, is don't confuse your private life with your life as an as a writer. Okay. Now there are parts of your life that will, of course, cross over, but if you're looking strictly at at social media, like, we'll use Facebook. It gets confused if you have one Facebook, you know, one Facebook page, and it's both your writing, your podcast, your family, your this, your that, your your extra curricular things, whatever you do with your church or with your, you know, vacationing and all of that. It doesn't know how to rank that.

Yeah.

It's yeah. It's like and so you're so it does nothing with you, basically.

Yeah. People stop seeing your stuff.

They stop seeing your stuff. I've tried it. Because the algorithm doesn't know when they're like, who is this crazy lady? Why is she trying to do all this stuff? What do we care?

Right? Mhmm. Because, again, it's it's narrowing things down, and it's really focusing in on building that audience, and that audience starts with who you are as a writer. And it's very hard for writers to understand that.

Okay.

And we've we've talked about it a bit. And I'll keep saying it because I think it's really important. Writers tend to be introverted, not all of them, of course, but they also tend to think solely about their craft in the story. And they don't understand that they it's them first and then the story. You promote the author and then the story.

That's really interesting. I think you should say that again. You promote the author.

You promote the author and then the story. Because, alright, I have this really weird example that I'm gonna make up out of this crazy brain of mine. Alright. So, I am not going to read something by a eight foot hairy man that is cussing all the time. Right?

I want nothing to do with him. He might write the best story in the whole world, but I don't know him. I don't like him. I don't trust him. And and we, unfortunately, have a tendency to let that first impression

Mhmm.

Cloud our vision sometimes.

Yeah. I think we have to get over the idea that writing or being an author is no longer what it was in the eighties and nineties. Like, I didn't know anything about my favorite authors back then. I did I and I would try to find, like, the author by you in the back. You know?

Like, you just didn't have access to it. They were just these kind of elusive somebody somewhere, and I got to see Isabel Allende speak one time, which was so exciting, you know, but now now you can find information. So you do need to be out there. Right? Like, you can Yeah.

You you if you want to sell a book, somebody's gotta know the book is coming. What? I mean, think about it. I mean, and that's the thing. If you don't have

an audience,

you have no one to sell your book to.

Yeah. Right?

And the audience wants to know you first and and not, oh, Kat, how many times you brush your teeth? That might be interesting, but, you know, that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about let's let's see. I wanna know about what's the topic of your book? Why are you writing it?

You know, what brought you to this place? I think that was that just came out of Ralph and Randy's, Christmas story. What brought you to this place? Anyway, so you have to you have to be able to express that to your reader. And I think I said to you one time, Kat, when your readers pick up your book, what do they expect?

Yeah. And then and then you made

me and then you made me look at my social media.

Yeah. But I think that's that's I think there's something that we have to that is something that we have to repeat over and over again because weirdly enough, writers are very I don't think they have the confidence in that people care about that. And that that is a that is a misconception in our brains that we've just gotta fix. Actually, when I read a book that I love, I now wanna know, like, if Barbara Kingsolver comes to speak somewhere, you better believe I'm gonna buy that ticket because I just wanna hear her talk about stuff and, like, and just meet her and be like, oh my god.

And when I was writing stories. And I was getting I was getting my my I was going through my the English program and, heavily in literature. And one of the professors I had, I loved her and I had her several times. And every time she'd make us read a book, you know, Look Homeward, Angel, all of all of the ones that are classics. And and I said, you know, I don't particularly like these stories, but I really wanna know why they are written.

Why did Thomas Wolfe write this? Why did Jane Austen write this? Why did, you know, Ernest Hemingway I wanna know about the person because when I know the person, it's interesting to me to see what went into their work from their own life experience, and that is part of it. Because I I mean, I don't know that I've met a writer, that writes fiction that doesn't put some of themselves in every book that they write.

Yeah.

And it's there's reoccurring themes. There's things that that you know in your soul that come out. Mhmm. And there's a reason. There's a reason you have to tell this story.

I wanna know why. Why do you write it? You know?

So that that's part of your author brand is telling people why you're writing?

Yes. And part of that, and we go back to and and I think we'll do this on the next episode, is we're really gonna start talking about understanding core values as a person. And this gets a little confusing and people always kind of hesitate. But of course, it takes some thinking about. So, I will have a link to this list of values.

And it's just it's a starting point. But the thing that's interesting about discovering your core values is when I did this, I I realized that what I thought were my core values were just and look, my hand's going up.

It's Zoom.

I don't know why it does that. But anyway, if only I didn't talk with my hands, thumbs up. Lower my hand. Anyway, what was I saying?

Your core values. So what you thought Yeah.

Your core values. So what I thought was my core values. I when you look at the way that, that you're to look at them so that they are you are identifying what's in you. Your core values. So it's the stuff that's down here.

And so they are ones that you freely choose. And I'm I'm gonna give the link to this too. Susan David, who wrote emotional agility, has a reference sheet for how you choose your values and what it really means. And one of the things that she says, and I'm looking up here, they're freely chosen and they've not been imposed on you. It has nothing to do with society, with your family, with, you know, culture, all of that.

They're not goals. They are things that you need to fulfill you. They're active. You know? It's just like, I had someone that said, well, my core value is kindness.

And I said, well and there's an exercise we went through. And I said, well, explain that to me. And she said, my best friend, one of my very best friends in college, passed away. And she was kind, and it meant a lot to her. So I want to carry on that legacy of being kind to people.

And I was like, that's not a core value. That's a really lovely thing to want to do. That's a reflection of your personality for sure. But is that fulfilling you? When you think about what fulfills you as a person, just you, no one else, does that come to your mind?

And, one of the other things, it's it it helps you to stop comparing yourself to others because it's like, oh, I must not be I have to say family. Right? Family's gotta be my core value.

That's what I was just gonna say.

If I don't say family, then I'm not as good as Kat because she loves her family.

No. So we're we need to put it this is like a very personal exercise in

This is a personal exercise.

Be very careful about choosing what you think society or other people need you to choose because that's not authentic. Right? That's not No.

That's right. But the thing that's really great about this is when you get through this exercise and you really think about it, it starts to foster self acceptance.

Oh, that's really nice.

Oh, you understand. Like, I I am like well, one of my jobs, they called me Roadrunner because I had a 100 balls in the air all the time. I walked so fast. I would, like, fly past people, you know, paper flying and stuff. Yeah, with my little bits and they'd be like, there goes Roadrunner.

And when I was doing an event, I was like a field marshal. I'm like, yo, over there, tablecloth done, you know, all these things and doing everything. But I felt that I had to do that. And when I stopped, I could never let a ball drop. Right?

Because people would think poorly of me. That was imposed on me by the way I grew up. When I stopped working out in the business world and started my own business, I couldn't do anything. I went from this really highly productive, motivated woman who just loved, loved, loved what she was doing to somebody who thought they were on this new career path. And I'm sitting there, like, spinning in my chair, and I'm like, what is wrong with me?

Yeah.

What I didn't understand was that structure has to be part of my life. If I don't have structure, if I don't have boundaries, I don't work. Yeah. We all think that it'd be great

to not have any structure until we have no structure. That's what I tell people, honest. I'm the same way, and it took me a very long time to figure that out because I was like, I used to be able to get so much done when I was working full time. Like, what the heck has happened?

Yeah. Because your mind and and what I figured out was one of my friends said, well, don't you call your husband during work and don't you call your son and don't you I'm like, no. When my footsteps into my office, it's go time.

Yeah.

And I know everything that has to happen, and I am focused solely on that. So then when you get in I get into this world where I'm in my own office. Right? In my home doing my thing, I'm like, I'm paralyzed. What is going on with me?

And then I started realizing that if I don't have the structure, if I don't have a plan, if I don't have organization, and I'm not I cannot deal in chaos. And so I have to recognize when my life is in chaos and and the structure is one of my core values because it aligns with what makes me function and feel good and understand how I do the things that I do. And so When I chose my core values or understood what they were, the ones that I have to have and you don't have a 100 of them. You have five, four, five, six. Because you can't do everything.

Right? You have to really think about it. It's challenging. But I keep my core values written in my notebook so that when I'm making decisions and stuff, I'm looking at them going, does this feel good? Am I happy when I'm thinking about this?

Does this decision feel like it's aligned with my values? So yeah. So they are, like, right here.

Okay.

And I'm I'm happy to share them with you. Mine are creativity, structure, authenticity, contribution, honesty, and connection. Those are my core values.

So when you say to do the exercise, we're we're we're choosing because I I know how creatives think. Right? We go really introspective and, like, you could we're not necessarily choosing core values for all of the aspects of our life. We're taking our core values and then we're choosing the top five that work in our author brand.

Well, no. They work in you. You're you. You, you, you. So your author brand is nothing but you, right?

Okay. Okay.

Okay. Yeah. So let's just take the brand out of it. Let's find out who's Cap.

Okay.

What do you need to be fulfilled? How do you figure those things out? Like I know with the creativity part of me, that is a driving force for me. And when I start getting feeling out of control or emotional, I realize I have to do something that allows me to be creative, whether it's writing, painting, and I'm a really bad painter. But it's okay.

Doesn't matter. You know, I craft But I make sure

that I still do it.

Yeah. I and and that's to me, baking and cooking is creative. And and there's a part of me that goes get this out of you right now so that you can think. Because until you do something to get this feeling out and you're doing and you're producing something When I like, what I use this example a lot. My father was very sick.

And every time I would come home from the hospital, I I just go straight to the the kitchen table and I'd start painting. Everybody got pumpkin paintings. And then because I was so filled with emotion and, you know, everything was kinda like battling. And the way to calm myself was to use my creativity, to think past it, to calm myself to and I like instant gratification. So I could paint something.

I could do something. I could make a wreath. I could make a, you know, floral. I could do anything. And I'm looking at it.

I'm like, I controlled that. I made it, and I feel so much better. Now I'm thinking in a more clear headed manner. And I if I can't show my creativity in some way, and everybody's got their different way, and it doesn't have to be something that's prescribed by someone else. You know?

I like color, so it's fun for me to, you know, doodle or to color with pencils and to and that just kind of calms me down, and I feel like I'm expressing myself through my creativity. It's not for anybody else to see.

Right. And I can see how this is. I mean, I know a lot of writers who their top complaint constantly is that they get sucked into social media scrolling. But I can see how if you have your top your top core values and you stop for a second to say, is this fulfilling me? Is it making me creative?

Is it helping me in my communication? Is it helping and if you can be honest with yourself, that is actually a really easy way to stop instead of saying, like, oh, I just can't stop. Like, actually, that would be a really nice way to be like, oh, okay. I need to

So if you're sitting there and you you're feeling guilty because you're like scrolling scrolling and you're like, oh, I you know, we all have FOMO. Right? And so it's like, I don't need this.

Yeah.

I really don't need this. If connection is one of my values, I'm so much happier if I'm doing something and I'm able to connect with someone. Like, doing this with Kat, this, like, hits all of my core values. It makes me so happy. It makes me feel so fulfilled because my creativity, I'm structured in the way that we're doing this.

You know, I'm being myself. I'm contributing. Hopefully, there's some value in this for someone. I'm honest about what I do and how I do it. And I'm connecting, and it feels so good.

It has nothing to do with the podcast being out there for it it's all personal.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it helps you make those decisions. Right?

Like, if, you know, if if it didn't fulfill you, you shouldn't say yes to something just because you feel you should.

And and that is the thing. This helps you with decision making. Okay. Because if you know if you know you're making a decision that's important, or even small ones, and they don't feel right, like for me, my gut, my intuition, my gut, it it lets me know when things aren't right. And then when I get that feeling, if I listen to my body, whether it's my shoulders are tense, I'm getting, like, hot, I'm, you know, uncomfortable, Stop for a second and go, why am I getting all these these cues and clues from my body and from my head?

What what am I not thinking about? And when I look at these things and I'm like, that doesn't meet any of the criteria of my core values. This is something outside of those that I'm not comfortable with. So

Yeah. Yeah.

And because everybody else is doing it, I've gotta do it. No. You don't.

Well, and that's the thing about being in the author world. Once you have a book out, there are a million things that you could be a part of, like, quite literally, and lots of people have ideas. And, honestly, if you go to Facebook or TikTok or where wherever you go and you say, what should I do? You'll get you'll get dozens of ideas thrown at you, and it always makes me feel so like I don't know what core value this is, but I hate it when when people I guess I'm very high on individualism, honestly. That's one of my strengths because I know that you can't do everything, and this is a very individualistic thing.

You you, like, you have to decide. Don't just do it. If you don't like in person, if you don't like talking to people, if it wears you out, don't do it just because everyone else is doing it. If you don't wanna do podcast, don't do it. If like but what you do wanna do, you can train yourself on.

But, I mean, we're talking author swaps, blog tours, social media. Like, I mean, you and I, between the two of us, we'd probably come up with, like, 36 different things that people would say this is what you have to do now as an author.

Yes. And see, but that that causes so much pressure and anxiety. Just, again, when you're talking about and it's like, you don't have to. You don't have to. And it's kinda like and I don't particularly like I've used a lot of phrases and things that I don't normally like.

But, you know, if somebody is putting peer pressure

Yeah.

You don't have to do this stuff. There's a

lot of peer pressure in the author world.

It's although I think social media is so good in some ways, but in other ways, it is so detrimental to us because we feel like we're falling behind. We're not good enough. We're not adding value. We're not capable. And if we don't do all of these things, we'll never be a successful writer.

And that's just not true. And that that's that whole this is why I think every writer owes it to themselves to sit down and do this.

Okay.

Look at these things and go, when you when you come to the end and you figure out what these values are gonna be, you kind of go, oh, wow.

Yeah.

I understand.

Yeah.

I understand myself a whole lot better now and I can sort of really see where situations in my life I've reacted in a certain way or I've done something and or I've gotten upset and mad because I don't like to be forced into a corner. I don't know anybody that does. And

Very many creatives do.

And, you know, being able to my whole thing, the authenticity is so important to me because I grew up in a household where you had to be x y z. You needed to be this. You needed to be this. You needed to be this. And if you weren't that, then you had failed.

Mhmm.

And so I wasn't all those things. And I tried very hard to be, and I was really miserable. Yeah. And I was afraid that if I actually showed people who I was, what my personality was, what I thought, what I liked, what I didn't like, that no one would like me.

Yeah. They'd label you a failure. Yeah. It's Yeah. There's a lot of internalized stuff.

Right? So

Yeah. And so had I really understood that, you know, somebody not liking me? That's okay.

Oh, so that's okay. So once you have your core values and if people don't like you, it's really okay. And I think that is one thing that authors take. I don't have a problem reading my reviews or seeing my unsubscribes or my unfollows. Some people do, but I always tell them it's actually better.

They're not gonna buy your book if you're if they

And the mask is so heavy. Gonna be miserable. It is so heavy to to to control. And, you know, I think as we as we age and, you know, in my early twenties, I made a lot of stupid stupid mistakes. And at the end of that cycle, I came to the realization, and this is this was my statement.

This is it. You don't like it? Too bad. Yeah. Yeah.

I was like, I said that.

Yeah.

I'm still here. My head didn't blow up.

Yeah.

I can own that. But you know what? You don't have to like me because chances are I was pretending to like you anyway.

There you go. So when we have these core values, do these go into our ideal mood? Are they is it at all effective?

This part of this, yes. You are going to you know, when you understand these and you have a better understanding of why you're doing what you're doing, it helps your messaging because you're gonna be you're going to be true to what feels good for you to release and to tell people. Okay. You know? Because, again, I work with the writer and he's like, I won't do social media.

I'm like, okay. It makes you uncomfortable. You don't want to expose anyone in your family to your career. I get it. That's that's fine.

So we're allowed to have those You're

able to pull it. Yes. You can put your you can draw that line in the sand and people will respect you for it. If you if you look at some of the authors that you really like, whether people agree with them or not, you know, like, Stephen King's famous for saying, shut up and sit in the seat and write. There's no such thing as writer's block.

Get to work. Shonda Wright

has that too. Man, people get mad. He go, well,

she goes a lot. Okay. But that's that's who he is. That is what he thinks. It's what he believes, and that's fine because, obviously, the man's very talented.

And if you like what he reads I mean, what he writes, you'd like to read yeah. You know what I'm saying. Anyway, that's that's part of who he is, and that's what you expect from him. JK Rowling is the same way. She's got some very, very strong opinions.

You may not agree with him, The gag on it, she's true to them. And every time she says something, she does it unapologetically.

Yeah.

Because she's not lying to her readers about who she is. Yep. Like it or not.

Like it or not. That's true. Yeah. So So We're we're attracting the people like, I guess we're attracting the the true fans when we are true to ourselves Yeah. Who will be the who are good with like, I guess they're looking for the stories that are part of our core values because our core values are go into our

story. Your story. Yeah. And I mean, that's not to say that if you write romantic fantasy, that there that's a little bit different. But what I'm saying is when you are talking to your readers, when you're connecting with them, and what you're saying to them, like, for instance, I have days when I don't wanna do anything.

There's just some days. Mhmm. And so if I say to my readers, this is a cupcake on the couch day. I can't do anything else. I'm I'm just I'm I'm done, and I'm okay with that.

And, you know, the book is gonna wait one more day, and you would be surprised. People would be like, you know, that's okay. Give yourself some grace. You don't have to perform. You're a real person.

And you're sharing that with your readers, and you're saying, look. This is how I am. I have days where I don't wanna do anything, and this is one of them. So that's it for today. That's all you're gonna hear from me.

I follow people that go, you know what? I'm stepping back. You're not gonna hear from me for a week because I'm gonna do blah blah blah blah blah blah. It's like, yes.

Yeah.

Good for you. Good for you because we are your fans and we are your readers, but we also want to to value you. We you know, I look at the the writers that I read. I'm like, man, I hope they take a vacation. I hope that they're not constantly under this pressure all the time to be on social media and do all these things because you know what?

There's a life.

Right. And the more that you're true to yourself and you're like that, you're not under the algorithm pressure. They yes. Because your true fans are going to still be around. Like, I Yeah.

I think I follow Barbara Kings all over. Like, there are a couple authors. I'm just every time we're live, I I forget author names. You know?

But Idea book. Where's your idea book?

Well, I have to write here. I have it. I have it.

But Oh, that was a Cruella de Vil look. If I've ever seen one. That was good.

Oh, I could be a really good Cruella. I always wanted to act the the evil people on the in the place. But I I like it doesn't actually matter to me as much how much they're on social media. There are people that you'll go buy their book once you find out their book is there. Right?

Like, I know who they are. So like to be a slave to the algorithm is really not going to I can prove it to you all. It's not gonna help you that much. Now I like social media. I like being a part of it.

I like the challenge of it because, dang, if it's not a challenge for me, like, it is not an easy thing. There are other people that, you know, it's just much easier. So I whatever. I like it. I'm on it.

But the I also have to realize, like, the more you work at this, you know, you are gathering your fans in all these different ways, and I cannot be just like, what is the algorithm doing now? Because that's actually not helpful to me.

Well, you you met Maite. We

Mhmm.

And she's a marketing brand. She's a brand person, and she works on websites and stuff, and she works with many different authors. And, you know, she said something in a webinar the other day, and I loved it. She said, social media is rented land. Mhmm.

You are on rented land. It's not your own. You don't own that algorithm. You don't have any control over how it changes what it does.

And it doesn't matter how much you complain

about it. They won't change it. They just don't care. Okay. They don't care.

And and then so that's one of the things when we get to strategy and plan. We'll talk about, you know, your newsletter, your email list, because your email list is yours. Nobody takes that away from you.

Yeah.

They may drop off. That's okay.

That's okay.

But you you nurture those people. You speak with those people. You connect with those people. And you find out how they want to be connected with. What are they interested in?

Mhmm. You're allowed to ask people.

Yes.

You know? Hey, I'm writing this book. What interests you about writing? What interests you about this character? You know, as we said last what was it last week?

Is she bitten by a dog or is she chased by a bear? What do you think? Yeah.

That's a funny

You know? So it's there is interaction is really good with your readers, and that's how you get really dedicated loyal readers is they

But I can see how once you have your core values for your author brand, like how and and you're and honestly, going in some of this is a bit you you I mean, we're humans so we have to have steps. Right? But it is kind of coming back constantly. Right? Like, you have your strategy, your plan, you come back to your core values, who you are as an author brand, your ideal reader.

Right? And you're constantly kind of I feel like you're you're always looking at that. Right? You're you're not like, oh, I did my author brand and now I'm moving on. Like, it's all So

these are these pillars are a core.

Yeah.

I always say, you know, you have to build the foundation of your marketing. You don't decorate a house that doesn't have any walls.

Right. You're, like, building it on there. You're not

just doing it and studying it. And you're not starting at the top, throwing that spaghetti all over the place, thinking it's gonna have some kind of results when you don't have any foundation underneath to support everything that you do.

Again, you can look at mine. That doesn't spaghetti at walls can be fun, and then you go, well, now I don't know why that worked or what did that.

Seriously, if you felt like you had to dress up like a hot dog and dance on TikTok and you did it religiously for three months and hated every second of it, and it was horrible, and it was frustrating. That's not who you are.

That sounds like a terrible idea.

I know. But, hey, I have a friend that would love to dress up like a hot dog and dance on TikTok. She would eat it up. It's funner. You know?

She's just like, I don't care.

That's like my nightmare, even if no one can see my face.

I did make my husband dress up like a hot dog for Halloween one time, and he's like, if you ever show those pictures.

If you ever do that to me again well, it's good, leverage. Right? I will show

this to you. It's pretty funny.

But, yeah,

I mean, that's a bit extreme. But, really, you have to and, again, this is my opinion, and this is what I think works just because I've I've examined this, and I know it's helped me. You want to be able to reach the people who want to read your work.

Yeah. I think that's who we're taught. Yeah. Yeah.

And that's and but you can't tell someone something until you know it yourself.

Okay. So what we need to do is find those core values.

Yes. And I've got we'll put it I get you always say in the show notes. I'm like, what are the show notes? It sounds so fun like dancing girls going across the stage. We have

our own vocab over here at the podcast.

Yeah. Okay. So you're starting to sound like a marketer. But I will have a link in for a a list of core values. Now this is not be all end all.

This is just a really good starting place, and there's about 58 of them. So, you know, And then there is what we have defined by Susan David, which helps you look at these values as you're going through. And and, like, again, your first one might be like I was like, independence. But then that ended up not being exactly what fit right for me. So you might choose 20, and then you start calling through them.

And you're like, what really real and you think about it. You have to really think about who you are as a person. And it's not necessarily always comfortable, but it's rewarding.

But it's rewarding. It's rewarding. And, like, there's something about taking the time to do it. And I have to admit, like, I will be very honest one more on these, like, I'm pretty honest anyway. But, like, sometimes I don't like talking about all my failures in the past, but we'll we'll dive into one of these.

I used to not take the time because I used to think I don't have the time to do that because I was so busy being a mom and doing the things and I just needed to do my writing. I really, like, time was just an obsession with me. But if because none of this is really that new to me, I've heard it, but I never took the time to do it. So I would tell anyone listening is if that's your first thought. Right?

Because I've been there. If you actually take the time to do it, you won't be like me seven years later going

things will go much faster for you and maybe flow a little bit better if you really understand where you're coming from.

And when I see other people who have gotten a little bit further than me, I think I bet you anything they took the time to do that.

Well and I thought, like, I will tell you, I when I started doing this, I I was, like, looking at my coach like, this is just I'm I'm 60 years old, 61. Well, I know what my core values are, but, boy, when I really looked at it in a from a with a different frame of reference and and separated out all those things that were imposed on me, it really like I said, it was freeing, and it took me a while. I mean, I I I'm very stubborn. I am very, very stubborn, and I'm like, I know and I know. But I didn't.

I didn't.

But, also, like, you have to know your author brand is you. Right? Like, if I work I've worked for lots of different companies. If I work for them, they've already figured out their core values. Now all I have to do

and all you're doing is working for it.

Yes. I have to represent that brand.

Yeah.

So in in that's a lot easier because they're saying, like, we we stand for honesty for this. We're okay. Now I represent that. Whatever. Like so now I have to figure that out for myself.

That's actually that's a lot of work.

Your brand is you, and it's how people perceive you. How do you wanna be perceived? When you leave the room, what do you want people to say about you? Do you want them to say, oh, she's got the best hair I've ever seen. No.

Well, maybe you do. I don't know. That's that's up to you. But, you know, and I start thinking about that and, like, I want people to say I'm intelligent. I want them to to see that I have value.

I want them to see that I am creative and that I can I can do things? I can accomplish things. I can, you know, I I'm contributing. When I'm on a team, I contribute. That's so important to me, and I do it in an honest way that's not mean, that's very compassionate, but I won't lie to you.

I don't like to be lied to. It it sends me through the roof. And, so that's really important to me, and I like to connect. When I'm on a team, I wanna be connected to the people.

Yeah. Right.

Right. So, really, your fans are your team.

Yeah.

They're they're the people who are working with you. They're the people who are going to buy your books. So

So what do you want your fans to say about you when you're not in the room, basically? I really like that question. That's a really that makes you start thinking. Right? Like Yeah.

That's a

different way. People to say about you when you leave the room.

Right. Right. Yeah. I and I think that helps you get it out of your own head. Right?

Like, how Yeah.

And it's not always, oh, nice boots. That was a pretty sweater. No. We gotta go a bit deeper than that because that's way too easy. Right?

But yes.

Answer is easy. It's probably not the right one.

That's exactly right. And this can be a little I'm telling you. It's a little uncomfortable. But you will find if you think back to situations that you've been in where you have really stood your ground, why were you standing your ground? Okay.

What was it that you know, I always had this rule when I was working. I was like, I will never market a product I don't believe in. And if I think that there's anything that's not on the up and up, if they're not honest, if they're not I can't do it. I'm not going to do it. Because I'm not gonna be the one standing on stage doing a presentation about something and they're lying.

Not doing it.

Right. Right. Right.

So that I didn't realize what that was. I just knew that that was aligned for me. And then when I realized, I was like, well, that's that's the honesty thing. If if I can't have complete honest, I I I don't want it. It makes me really uncomfortable.

So, you know, that's it's kinda like think back. Just just think back. And when you if you if you do decide to look at this list and you want to give this a try and, you know, noodle around with it a bit, it'll be in those show notes. So look at look at the the suggested Yeah. Values, and then look at the, the other sheet that shows you, you know, kind of like the criteria, and take a shot at it.

And then I also have a, an article from the editor of I think it's I believe it's editor in chief of, Amble, publishing and he talks about it's a really good article about author brand versus author promotion versus book book promotion. So promoting the author, promoting the book. Oh. And so, because you know what? I can tell you all this stuff.

Go research it.

Yeah.

You know, you don't have to believe me, and I want there to be research that backs up the things that I believe. And and so you can go out there and find things that's talked about Arthur Brown, what it is, how you how you establish it. This is just my way. I'm not saying it's the right way. But it's the way I'm comfortable with.

And I think it works.

This is the way they're getting.

I'm I'm on the list of This is me. Yeah. Hey. This is it.

This is it. Well, in when we have our live in the March, you know, I would encourage people to have your core values. And if you have a question about it, you can either send it in or you can come to the live and we can talk about the core values. We're gonna talk about them even more next week. I'm gonna not next week, next month, because I'm gonna come with my core values and that's gonna Becky's gonna talk to us about how we're gonna go into our ideal reader and we're gonna talk about newsletters.

Yeah. Okay. Oh, we have a lot to discuss.

We do have a lot to discuss. And then next month, we'll start the throw cat under the bus because she should have had her core values already figured out.

Oh, I'm gonna let you know. I'm already starting my newsletter. You better hurry up now.

You're gonna be there. Well, you you will check my stuff.

Be any good, but it's gonna have a format.

But that's the thing. Like and that's what I wanted to like, I am the queen of trying and failing. I I learn best when I fall flat on my face. And that's the thing. Like, none of this is perfect.

I No. I know that. It's better to try than to be perfect at it. We just have to and and not in a way of, like, throwing spaghetti at the wall, but you have to try things. You have to start.

It's not gonna be perfect. When I, we are of the generation of no selfies. It is very uncomfortable to turn the camera around. It's uncomfortable to talk to it. You feel silly, but I will say no one's, like, when you're starting out, literally no one's seeing you, so just start.

Like and that's what I would tell myself over and over again. And then when somebody says, oh, I saw your video, I go but they're usually like,

it was such a bad note. Yeah. And that's the thing. We we are so judgmental of ourselves.

We're terrible to ourselves.

And we just think that we everything we do is just silly. But we all have value. And I think that it's this is just part of learning, You know? And if a writer starts to understand what they have to offer

Yeah.

And they become more confident in feeling that, yes, this is a good story. This means something. You know? People will enjoy this. They will feel something.

It's gonna all these different things. It helps your confidence. And if nothing else, I think that's really important to to really start understanding that, hey, this is your skin. Yep. Be in it.

Yep. And and understand that everybody's got different strengths and weaknesses, and that's okay. And it's alright to be messy. Yes. That's the thing.

It's like, oh, messy so bad so bad. It's not. It's really not because I'll tell you what, messy makes you learn quickly. And there's nobody out there that's not messy. And that's the other thing.

I don't care how good people look on camera. I don't all that stuff. Everybody's got their thing. There's not one of us that does not carry something. And so we have that in common and that if that makes you feel a little bit better about starting this and you know what?

People are generally helpful. And if you need help, we'll help you.

We are generally the most judgmental. Most people are out there, like, ready to encourage you. Like, just and if you don't say that, go to a different place on the Internet.

Well, but that's that's the thing. That's part of it is and then we will talk about that later when we're talking about, you know, strategy and stuff is ask. Ask for help. I was in a community group. And one of the things the rule was, you have to say something, you have to celebrate something because that's how you start building your confidence.

Even the smallest things. I made my bed. Yes. Alright. You made your bed.

And then say something good about yourself.

Oh. Now we're getting uncomfortable. Yes.

What are you proud about? Mhmm. You're allowed to say it. And that was really it was so hard. It was so hard.

But you know what? It it made me feel good. And we all were in that same boat together going, and then they'd go I'd be the last one and they'd be like, Becky. I'm like, nothing happened. And they're like, what?

You've had a whole week away from us. Not one good thing happened. You didn't do something good. You know, and you're just like it's like stop that.

Yep. Yeah.

Stop it. You're only hurting yourself. People wanna know. They want you to ask. And that was the last thing we did.

Every week, we asked for help in some way. And I'll tell you what, I got my first client that way.

That's interesting.

And it was like it was from someone I had just met, and I said, this is what I really wanna do. If you know any writers and I got a writer the next week just because I asked, and I let somebody know.

You have not asked that. Interesting. Alright.

It was hard, but I was like, that's what I need. I'm floundering. Yep. And I got it.

Yep. And that's that is true. We need like, writers are alone so much that I think that we feel like we have to do everything alone, and we don't. We absolutely don't. So we are going to have all those links in the show notes.

We're gonna continue to talk about author brand. I mean, we are giving you guys the the pillars, the author brand, the ideal reader and then the strategy and implementing it because that is just gonna be the circle that we go constantly because that as you said, that's the foundation. My head sees it as a merry-go-round but that's okay. We can do a foundation.

That's what you wanna see. Right.

Well, how do you build off of that because you can't go anywhere. You won't know what the results are. You won't know how to build on it if you don't have those. So

because you have to have goals and you have to be able to have actionable steps to reach them, and you have to be able to track them because it doesn't do you any good if you don't know if you're successful or not. I mean Yeah. Yeah. So because I have

stories about people who actually don't know why they were successful and then how why they suddenly weren't. And we don't wanna be like that. Right? We wanna know we wanna be able to continue to build from

Yeah. And we wanna make this as easy as possible for you. Take the scare out of it, the overwhelm, and the feeling that nobody can do it unless you're a professional marketer. Yeah. Yeah.

You don't have to be.

Which we all know that at our core. We just need to admit it. So okay. That's awesome. We are going to encourage you guys to look in the show notes below for all the links and, we will see you guys next time and we I want to remind you that if you get on the writer's newsletter which is always in the show notes below, you will be the first to get all of the information for the live.

You will have the links to fill out the the question forms. So if you want to stay in the know and of course we will have the the date next week and on social media as well, but email is just so much easier. Like it's actually in your inbox. You can always go back and refer to it. So we encourage you guys to do that so that you can be part of the live at the March.

But thank you, Becky. We will be back

in a month. This is lovely. I love doing this. I can't wait till next time. I know.

You too. Thank you, Kat, for having me. I appreciate it.

Of course.

Take care, everybody. Bye. Bye.