Ep 299 Characters with Conviction with guest Jake Lynch

Welcome to Pencils and Lipstick. This is a podcast for indie authors. I'm Cat Caldwell, novelist, short story writer, and book coach. Here on Pencils and Lipstick, we're obsessed with bold things story, and it is my goal to bring you the writing tips that you need to make your novel come to life. Hello, everyone.

Welcome to episode 299 of Pencils and Lipstick. I'm Kat Caldwell. Yes, we are almost at 300 episodes. It is February 21 as I record this. This episode will go out February 23, so we are at the end of the 2026.

That is crazy, y'all. Oh my goodness. So we have an author interview today, which is very exciting because we haven't had one, I guess, in like two weeks. That's why we haven't had one. But if you did not check out last week's episode because it was Presidents' Day weekend and lots of people were out of town and maybe you were doing other things other than listening to Piafoncelles and Lipstick, which quite frankly, like, I don't know why you would.

Like, what else is there to do? But if you happen to find something else to listen to, go back and listen to last week's episode 298 because it is the very first full episode of Craft and Connect, which is our monthly marketing episode with Becky Grogan. And we are starting from the beginning. We're talking about the pillars of marketing. And as I learn about marketing, you're going to be learning about marketing.

I've been trying to learn about marketing for years and years and years and it's finally connecting and Becky is helping me and she is kindly helping you as well every single month. I can also announce to you that March 24 at 1PM Eastern, we are going to have our first marketing live episode. So you can sign up for that in the show notes below. You will not get access to the recording unless you sign up for it. It will not be posted anywhere.

It is free to attend, so we hope that you will attend and we hope that if you sign up, you actually come or put to good use, but you can send in if you're not able to because we do understand like timing is not always great and we are going to move the time, every quarter. We'll have another one in June and we're going to switch up the time for you all to see if we can get people from different parts of the world. But you can send in your questions. So once you sign up for the Marketing Live, you'll get an email from me and from from that email, you can hit the reply button and you can send in your questions. And maybe you do it just in case you can't attend, like what if you're sick or your kid is sick or your dog is sick or I don't know, there's a whole disaster, you just forget.

And I don't know. So be sure to send in your questions or you can ask them live, whatever you want, but we're very excited about that. We're like, I'm just loving talking with Becky about marketing because I need to learn more and I know you you need to learn more because we are not marketers, we are authors. Right? And so the more that we can learn together, the better.

And what can be better than asking questions live? So next month, we're going to be talking about author newsletters, so you can even bring me your questions about that and we are going to sort of throw Becky under the bus. She needs to get her marketing newsletter. But I've been doing newsletters for years now. Ten years?

Oh my gosh, that's so crazy. So because that episode will air before the live, you can bring those newsletter questions as well. And in last week's episode in the show notes, you can find free resources from Becky, so be sure to get those. Always look at the show notes y'all. It is like if you click on the episode in whatever app you're in and you just sort of scroll down and the information about the episode where I say like this week we're talking to Jake Lynch, which is our author this week, there's there's usually links down there.

Okay? That's where, that's what the show notes are. Alright. So anyway, you can also like DM me on Instagram or TikTok and I will gladly help you, or email me as somebody did last week and said, I don't understand what show notes are and I will gladly tell you. So, I actually got my edits back for Next Love, and I'm so excited about this book.

Like, I'm just really excited, and I think it's not that I am not always excited about my books. I'm actually always really, really excited about my books, but I have to, like, fully admit that my confidence has gone up exponentially in the last four years. Like, first of all, COVID did a number on me. I think it did a number on everyone where you just felt like you were in a black hole. You're just like, oh my gosh, does anyone even care?

And then just learning marketing, quite frankly, guys, and getting and like feeling better in the skin of marketing, like, feeling more comfortable in that, it took me it just took me a long time. I think I admire people in which it doesn't take that long for them, but it took me a long time. And so if it's taking you a long time to feel good in marketing skin, I feel you. Like, I understand where you're coming from. And that's like a lot of times I look at, authors who are with the press and they're helping them with the marketing and I get a little jealous because it's like, it's so much easier when you have a cheerleader sort of showing you the ropes and guiding you along and telling everyone how great you are, and how great your book is.

And the more that they sort of cheerlead it, the less you get into your head in that moment of like, oh my gosh, my book is going to come out and what if nobody likes it and we all have that imposter syndrome, right? So it's, I just, I know what it is like guys to just, to not really, to not know how to get the excitement that you have out into the world when it's just you working on it. You feel very alone. This is this can be a very lonely business, but you'll get there. And Becky and I are gonna help you get there with these monthly marketing, episodes and just, you know, feel free to get on my my newsletter and write me questions.

I don't have all the answers all the time, but I'm totally up to cheerleading you or find yourself some cheerleaders, you know, join your local writing group, your local genre writing group, if you have one and find some cheerleaders out there because, you know, if you like, honestly, if you find somebody else that writes in your genre and you like cheerlead their book, you know, put it in their newsletter, in your newsletter, and you talk about their book on your social media and you sort of like sharpen your, your marketing tools on marketing somebody else's and they do the same for you, for some reason it's easier to do it for someone else than ourselves, but then you also feel like, oh, they do like my book and I can talk about it like that too, you know? So I highly encourage you to not give up on the marketing and find your stride and just be okay that it takes a little bit, especially those of us who are of a certain generation who didn't grow up taking selfies all the time. Okay? And honestly with Instagram and TikTok, just, you know, just kind of copy other people and like see what they're doing and do the same.

Like, I don't know what to post. I don't know what to take a picture of. I don't know what video to make. Just take a video of you typing something and then put some words over it, literally. It's okay.

We can we can do that. Get some inspiration from other people and, and you can you can do it. I believe in you. So I will have actually the edits done. And we have another volleyball weekend this weekend, but I think I'm actually gonna have the edits done.

It's a it's a fairly clean manuscript, and don't get jealous because the historical romance is not a clean manuscript at all. It's actually driving me insane as I get back to it. So, like, I'm very surprised. An audience with The King and Next Love are probably the cleanest manuscripts that I've ever had. So when I say it's a clean manuscript, you don't have to be like, oh, you're one of those writers.

No. Usually, I'm not one of those writers. So I'm kind of lucky this time. Every other manuscript is a is a mess for me. But that's okay.

Just keep going. Right? So I'm gonna be working on those edits and I'll be getting them out to the ARC readers very soon. I am actually working with another closed door author who also does PR, for my arc and so I will be getting back to you guys on what I think about that, experiment. I found money in the crevices of my couch, so I thought I would spend it on that.

We'll see how that goes. I'm really excited to see like what, where that can take, next love because with stepping across the English Channel right back there, I did the entire arc and I was really pleased with it, but I'm excited to see what I can do with somebody else, you know, alongside of me basically. So, but I would encourage you if you're going to do that to interview the person, to look into that, their business, to see, who else they've helped. So I definitely did that. Savannah was great.

We talked on the phone for about half an hour, going over things and it was really wonderful. So definitely you are allowed to interview people. You are allowed to say yes or no or I'm just looking or I'm shopping. Tell me more. Give me some details.

And the biggest thing with PR, and because we're all getting those scam emails and we're all getting sort of bombarded by all these people who I think are preying a little bit on the desperation that we have to be seen in a very saturated book world, you look for details. Okay? If it looks too good to be true, it probably is, just delete it and, you know, call it spam on your on your email. If it is something that is is vague or sounds like they pretty much took your book blurb and ran it through chat GBT, that's spam, I don't care. What else, you know, if they have a website or whatever, if they're not willing to actually give you a real email, don't don't even bother.

Okay? Now when you're looking and you find somebody who you think is legitimate, a lot of times I look at like author, personal assistant sites, groups on Facebook or, you know, just other people are advertising on Instagram or whatever. You go in and you ask questions and you look for details. So I went through probably four people. I looked at their website at sent questions, but Savannah was the only one that answered in detail exactly what she was willing to do for the price that she was willing to do for.

And she she told me like where she wasn't going to just put a graphic on a Facebook group. She was going to go to this site, this site, find an ARC reader here. This is how I, how I filter through. I have this many ARC readers already in my, you know, directory. I contact them.

I have a form for you to fill out. She had all the details and so that is what I have realized after this process of, like, so many people these days are very vague. They're willing to take our money and they're willing to sort of pop of of graphic here, there and there and like, well, that Facebook group has a 100,000 people in it. Well, it's social media. Okay?

There's no guarantee anybody sees it. There's no guarantee that the timing is right or that they'll put the graphic up several times. I mean, we all know this, just doing our own social media. Don't think that it's any like more magical because somebody else posts it. So look into the details of what they're doing.

And the more that they you you ask questions and the more they talk, the more you'll be able to see whether they really know what they're doing or whether they are just sort of, yeah, yeah, we can do that. Yeah, I can do that too. Like, where are you going to find my author swaps? Who are you going to ask to put my book in there? And she could give names in how she finds people and how she goes through and to and and by the end of it, she gave so much details that she was like, well, I mean, I guess you could do that too.

And I said, no, no, no. I don't want to. That sounds like a lot of work, because she had, like, such a specific way of going in and finding, these different authors to swap with. And she said, to be honest, it is a lot of work, but she has a system down. And I said, I'm totally totally willing to pay you for this that system.

So people who know the job that they're trying to sell you will give you the details and they'll make it sound great and they'll make it sound worth your money. Okay? So that is my my little tip for this week, because that is what I have been doing. If you guys want to be on my ARC team, if you like closed door contemporary romance in the sort of feel of Rebecca Yaros, but with spice that's at a two and not at a five, so that's my pitch to you. You need to get on my readers list and then you can get into the ARC team if you want to.

Okay? So this week, we are gonna have an an author interview. Like I said, we're speaking with Jake Lynch and he is an author specializing in contemporary religious fiction and action adventure novels. So it was really fun to chat with him. He is someone who did not think that he would become a writer, which is really fun to listen to when people, when when you sort of hear the story of how they got into writing.

And I think that a lot of you guys are going to really relate to him in the struggle of writing, and then like finally sort of becoming comfortable with it. So he says, while writing stories is entertaining, his main mission is to help spread the gospel of Jesus Christ and to bring hope and healing into the world. When he's not writing, he is usually surfing, doing Brazilian jiu jitsu, and watching anime. Some of his favorite anime are Narut Naruto, Rise of the Shield Hero, and 86. I bet all you anime people are screaming at me to say that properly.

As a local of Southern California, the call of the ocean is never far as his love for surfing constantly brings him back to the water. So we will have the links in the show notes below, where you can find his website and then ultimately his books. But please, listen to Jake Lynch's story in just a second. Please share it with all of your friends and family and be sure to like and subscribe to Pencils and Lipstick on whatever app you are listening to. Alright.

Hello, everyone. I am here with Jake Lynch. He is a Christian contemporary author. Although, at the moment, I guess you could always go into other things. But how are you doing, Jake?

I'm doing very well. Thank you for having me on, Kat.

Yeah. I'm excited to talk with you. We're gonna go into characters and what makes a good character and all the things. Before we do that, can you tell us a little bit about how you got into writing?

It's a unique story, actually. Oh, really?

I love unique stories.

Well, like, it's interesting because I never actually had any interest in becoming an author to begin with.

That is like heresy. I don't know how to say that.

Wait. What heresy?

Why? No. Go ahead.

Okay. Okay.

Every author is like, I always wanted to be an author from the time I was born.

Yeah. No. I'm I'm complete I'm the total opposite. Like, I had zero interest in writing. I was not a huge reader growing up.

I still have some difficulty reading, but I still read. Don't worry. So I was around I was in college around the time, and I was like, my sophomore year, I had just finished a very stressful semester. And, like, for some reason, I started getting this idea to write a novel about a janitor, just like a man who does nice things for you, who does nice people because that prior summer, I encountered a janitor on the train when I was out in school. And this guy just left a very positive impression on me, and I don't know why.

So I get this idea to write a story about a janitor, and I'm like, this idea isn't going away, but I don't feel pressured by it. It's not an anxiety driven thing. And they're like, this was weird for me because I never wanted to be an author. I didn't like writing. In fact, like, English class was one of my least favorite classes.

I'm sorry to all my high school teachers. But,

I mean, they don't really make it that much fun, honestly. Like

Depends on what you read. But and so I'm like, alright. This idea is kinda odd for me. So I'm like, I, like, I wonder if this is, like, something from God. You know?

Because, like, I'm a very profound Christian, and I believe in God. And so I'm like, I wonder if God's trying to tell me something. So I sit down and have a quiet time. I just pray in silence for, like, five minutes and just ask, like, God, do you want me to write a book about a janitor? And so I pray in silence, and then I take my Bible and I flip open to where I was currently reading.

And I was originally reading in the New Testament, but I actually got another impression to start reading the book of Isaiah, which is, like, old testament. So, like, jumping all the way on the other side of the spectrum. And so I start reading the book of Isaiah, and then I get the impression to write the book. And then I flip open, and the first thing that I read was Isaiah chapter 30 verse eight, which says, now go and write down these words. Write it in

a book. Oh, dang.

And I look up, and I'm like, okay. You can't get more clear than that.

She's like, I was kinda hoping you'd say no. No. No. I gotta

be around and say Well, I'm like, god, do you want me to write a book? Because if you want me to, I'll do it, but I've never done it before.

Request, doesn't it? Like It

was so out of left field for me. So from that moment on, I started writing an hour to two hours a day. Okay. And it took me a while, but five years later, I finished and published my first book, Broken to Beautiful, and at the 2023. And then now I have my second book published, The Lost Saint, and now here we are years later.

And now I love writing.

Now you love isn't that funny? Like yeah. I don't think we always know what we are created to do. Just like, some people do. My husband knew exactly what he was created to do.

Like, he's a numbers guy. He understands numbers. He thinks his whole life in numbers. It's really annoying that that I got paired up with him because I'm like, I think in visions and, like, words and he thinks in numbers, you know. But but, yeah, I don't think we always know the hidden talents we have.

So that is really cool that that you were able to that you pursued it, honestly. I think a lot of people might push things aside, and not pursue it, especially if they're like, no. I was no good in English, you know, when I was a child. It's like

It was it was hard.

Did anything.

Just getting me to write a paragraph was hard. I'm sorry. What were you saying?

I know. Go ahead. As you're writing this book though, like, did you ever feel because when I started, I I wanted to write write way before, but I always thought writing was like you just had that gifting. You're just gonna write a book like and I think a lot of people, I still encounter people, they're like, I have a story. I wanna write a book.

And I'm always like, it's not as easy as that simple sentence. So how was your, your journey and like trying to figure out what a book is? Cause I think we all think we know. And then we

Yeah. Like the synopsis is it's a journey.

Yeah. It really is.

So, like, my first book, Broken and Beautiful, it took me a long time to not just write it, but to make it into a book. So, like, I had never written anything before, so I had no idea what I was doing. So it's a journey of trial by error at first. Like, you have to discover what your writing process is. And so I had a lot of discouragement at first.

It was more of a discipline to me

Yeah. Yeah.

Than enjoyment at first. And so I had to figure out, like, well, how do you write a book? And I would, like, ask people and I would read a couple books on, like, how to write books. And it was tell you, like, well, you have to discover how you write a story. And I'm like, okay.

And so it's like, are you a pantser or are you a plotter? And I'm like, okay. Which one am I?

Yeah. Do I choose, or do I

Yes. So I would, like, I would spend a full year trying one method out. I spent a full year just, like, plotting the whole thing. I would take a notebook and just write down every single event, character, and everything, like, what exactly would happen, but I ended up never writing the story. Oh.

And then Yeah. I try so I abandoned that, and I tried just free writing it, like, pantsing it. And I would end up writing a story, but I would never go anywhere. It's kinda be like in a tornado. You just spin around and you just end up somewhere else, and you have no idea where you're going.

So I'm like, okay. Neither of these methods are working for me. So I had to try a new method, like, the hybrid of, like, plotting a majority of the story, but also free writing a majority of the story. So I plot the major points of, like, okay. This, like, this event happens to this character.

Like, they go from a to b, but I don't tell you how they go from a to b.

Right. And Yeah. Because you can't, like, stop your creativity.

Yeah.

You know? Like, you don't wanna block that. Did you feel like because I've heard from some when you plot out too much, it's almost as though your brain feels like it's written, but it's not written, and now it doesn't wanna write it. Is that something that you found?

Yeah. Yeah.

It's like, oh, I feel like I did that, but you didn't. It's like, wait.

I mean, it has changed a little bit more for me as I've evolved more in writing. I feel like I definitely plot more of the story nowadays, but the like, I do free write a majority of the, I guess, between the lines, I would say. So I don't know. Like, just like for me, I'm like, when I have a clear picture ahead of me, like, alright. This happens, this happens, and this happens, then I can just pave the road and not worry about it.

So it's it makes me feel more relaxed when I know where the story is going. And I'm like, alright. This is the point I'm trying to get across. This is what I want the reader to take away from, not just like, oh, like, this happens and a lot of craziest stuff happens and what was the point of it all?

Yeah. No. But I think that that's I think most of us are hybrids. I think this whole idea of, like, pants or plotter is

Mhmm.

Is kind of like a black hole argument because the more that you write, the more you realize, okay, I have to write down the ideas that come to me, but I do have to give myself freedom to free write, you know. And so, like and I don't know about you, but the more intricate your story gets, especially if you're writing apocalyptic, you know, you have to you have to write those things down. Otherwise, I forget. I'm like, I did have a good idea. What was that idea?

So I have to write it down but I wouldn't consider that completely plotting either, you know, like as like James Patterson's 80 pages of plotting that he hands off to his other writers. But, yeah. Otherwise, sometimes you just write and write and write and it it doesn't go anywhere. You're like, wait a minute. What was the point of this?

Because it's weird how you can end up writing 2,500 words and you're like, yeah. But there's no conclusion to the scene, therefore Yes. Like, what was the point?

Yeah. What was the point? And, like, I always like to have an intentional message in my stories

Mhmm.

Not just like, oh, yeah. This is a book just for entertainment. Like, yes, there is some entertainment value, but I want my reader to take something away from it. I want them to enjoy it and learn something about it.

Do you know what that's gonna be when you first start writing?

Yes. Like, the way that I prepare a book now is I plan it based off a theme or a message that I wanna come across to my readers. So, for example, like, one message could be, like, I want my reader to learn how people go from feeling lonely to make finding friendship. You know? I was like, you can find friendship if you're feeling lonely, and I'll take that concept and I'll create a story out of it Yeah.

Going from a to b, which is, like, going from lonely to having friends, etcetera. So Yeah. That's just one way that I create my stories.

Yeah. I think that's a that's a that's a sign of, like, maturing into understanding how story works, you know, because I've I've heard a lot of people talk about, like, finding the question, like, they ask the question that the story then answers. You know, there's a couple different ways, like, some people might call it, like, story then answers. You know, there's a couple different ways like some people might call it like finding your theme, you know, and kinda depending on the genre. But I think that that shows that you're intentionally writing a story that can live longer than just sort of in the moment.

And I the it's kind of what I'm trying to get everyone who will listen because I keep picking up some books that I I say, okay, the intention I can see the intention of this book and it's good, but you didn't quite think through everything to the point where it's a book that I can recommend and it will stay with you. You know what I mean? So and if you and really that comes down to the characters because like plots plots can be really interesting, but I think really what makes the plot more interesting is the characters. Like, if you have a different character in in a, you know, Guardians of the Galaxy, it's probably not gonna be as entertaining. You know?

Right. I mean, just not.

No. Yeah. And characters are the driving force of a story. And that's one of the ways that I like to drive a story is I place both a theme on the story, but also a theme on the character as well.

Okay.

Like So

how do how do you do that with the characters?

Yeah. So it's I mean, like, I like to think of a type of problem or a a certain struggle that a character will go through. And, like, how does this struggle affect that character? So, for example, if a character like, going back on, like, let's say, the loneliness factor. If a character struggles with being lonely and they want to find friendship, I like to play that off.

Like, kinda like build around it. Kinda like build it as the core and build on it so that okay. How is the character gonna react when they don't have a lot of friends? How do they feel

Mhmm.

In that moment when they're like, oh, I'm struggling with loneliness. And so then I can think of the setting of, like, alright. What's a what's a setting where a character can feel lonely? It's like, okay. They can be sitting on a bench by themselves, or I can play it on the opposite and be they're in a crowd full of people, but yet they still feel lonely.

Right. Right.

And I can play that often. So I can play the story to where they go from feeling lonely to finding friends. They're like, alright. How do they find friends?

Yeah.

And then it's amazing to watch them grow and develop as it all unfolds.

Honestly, I think that that's another way of looking at what the, you know, the goal and the motivation of the characters. Because a lot of these, like, craft books, I don't know if you found this, but when I started reading them, I was like, okay. But I don't quite, like I understood what they were saying, but I didn't quite understand how to, like,

apply it,

I guess. Okay. And maybe it was just, like, how I learn. But it took quite a bit of thinking where I would be, like, how do I take this goal idea, you know, and, like, put it into my characters. But, like, you're just saying in another way, like, you you come up with the question of what you want the reader to come away with.

And that might be an easier way for a lot of people to apply, like, and develop their characters. Because when I'm editing manuscripts, the number one thing I see is the characters are are very flat. They're and and that just is that doesn't resonate with readers. Right? Like, it doesn't quite do you they become very forgettable.

And that nobody wants that. Right? We want characters that are memorable.

Oh, yeah. And it's like, it's amazing how, like, you want your reader to connect with the characters. You want them to enjoy the characters. And so like, well, like, but how do you do that? Yeah.

You know? Like, how do you create relatable characters? And so it's like I like to think of it as people relate to care like, certain people relate to certain characters because it's hard to find a character that relates to every single person on the planet because everyone is different. Right. You know, we all go through different experiences.

And so I like to create intentional characters for specific readers.

Okay. You

know? Like, in my first book, I like to I took the concept of, like, identity, and I created a character around them. Like, alright. This character struggles with identity. And, like, how do I portray that?

And so I make them an actor. And they have, like, multiple characters that they play, and so they don't know who they are. And so I like to appeal to people who have also struggled with that problem in their life. Like like, who am I? What is my identity?

And how do you find your identity?

Yeah. Yeah. I really like that. So that how did you find the plot points for that story? Because that could also, like, once you have that character

Mhmm.

You could just keep writing a whole lot of scenes. Oh, yes. Yes.

I like to solve the problems, but let storytelling show the solving. That's a odd set of words for that. But I I the way that I set that up with the concept of, like, finding identity is, like, alright. How can I show this character going from struggling with their identity to finding their identity? And I created that intentionally because I think of real world problems that people struggle with

Mhmm.

And I implement them into my characters. Okay. Because if a character goes through a similar struggle that a person in in real life has gone through, they're going to connect to that character and relate to that character.

Absolutely.

And so they'll be more interested within the story. So I then show the character going, like, alright. Here's the problem. And then as the story proceeds, we get to the solution, and here's how you get to the solution.

Okay.

So you'd have to read the story a little bit for for my first book.

But as the writer, is that what you sort of found? Like, once you found the, like, the solution, was it easier to then write the character with with it going someplace where, like Yes. So you needed the solution?

Yes. I I had a destination in mind of, like, where do I want to take my character? Like and how do I want them to grow? Because a lot of the storytelling involves the characters growing from certain experiences. So I get to have the fun part of thinking, how can I get my characters to grow?

Yeah.

And that plays into making them more relatable because one way that characters grow is that they make mistakes. Yeah. And we as people, we're we are fallible human beings. I make a lot of mistakes. Yes, Kat.

You've seen right through my facade.

I never would have guessed.

You never would have guessed it. And so you you have to let your characters make mistakes sometimes so that they can learn and grow for them. I kinda like to think of it as a parent having to let their kids make mistakes because they have to make the mistakes on their own so that they can grow from it. Because if you baby them, they're not gonna grow.

Right. Right. If anyone's not a parent, you'll just just take our word for it. So and I think that's where a lot of times as I started studying story, I would see people say, like, don't make your characters perfect. And I think the misconception is to, like, give them a flaw.

And really the the what what that is trying to say is exactly what you said. It's like they need to actually make mistakes. They like, you can it we're not talking about, like, they're not the most beautiful or they have a lisp, but, like, that's not the point, you know, which you can. You can give the characters whatever, but they have to make mistakes so that they take a step forward and half a step back the whole story. That's what's so interesting.

Mhmm. You know? Otherwise, you you can't look back and be like, oh, man. If they hadn't decided that, then the whole world would have been saved quicker. You know?

But, like, that there would be no story if you did.

There would be no story at all. It's like, oh, if it was a perfect world, then there'd be no problems. But this is

Right.

Not a perfect world, and we don't live in a perfect world. So there's going to be a story here.

Yeah. Absolutely. Like and and like you said, we all make we all make those mistakes anyway. So do you when you have that solution then Mhmm. Because I'm always trying to find a way to help people get, like, finish their story.

Because I think this is a lot of, like, I was I think I told you before we started recording. I was talking to a writer over the weekend and he says, I have, like, 10 stories started. They're about one third way done and then I give up. And I was like, I know what your problem is. You don't know where your character is going and you, like, you don't understand, like, the whole story.

Right? So when you had the solution, did you know all the mistakes? You know, like or or is that part of your free writing?

It's a mixture of both. I would say it like, that depends on the character. But when I have the solution in mind, it gives me a better idea of where I want to take the character. Mhmm. So for example, let's just give the example of, like, oh, I want my character to learn how to trust people more, to, like, open up to people.

So then that gives me, like, the ideas of, like, alright. How do I put them into situations where they will learn to trust people?

Okay.

And I'll be like, okay. I can sometimes I'll have to force my character into a situation. Like, oh, they have to trust someone because they can't save themselves in this situation. So, therefore, they have to trust someone to get out of that situation, and they'll realize that they have a problem. And then it proceeds on from there.

So you're exactly right. Once I have the solution in mind of where I want to take my character, then I can figure out ways to get them there.

Okay. Alright. And then as you're as you're writing it, what's your process on like what are I guess, what are your thoughts or your process even as you go forward in writing? Because I think our process always changes. I don't know if your process, like, matures maybe.

Like, I don't know, or changes slightly as you learn more. But how would you tell somebody who's starting, like, okay. You have your character. You have, like, the question or the the idea or the the thing that you want them to learn and then the solution. Like, how do you make these deep characters that are really connecting?

Like, do you have a draft and then you go back and then you layer and then, I don't know. Do you do you have a thought on, like, how you've managed to do all of that? Because I think a lot of people think they should just be able to write it. I don't know. Maybe you were able to.

So

It varies. Like, our writing process evolves as time goes on, but I think about a lot of what I want my reader to take away from this story.

Oh, you think about your reader. I want everyone to listen to the I keep harping on my listeners to think about their reader.

No. Yeah.

You just, like, you you just validated my opinion.

I'm I'm very glad that I did that for you.

So So you think about the reader when you're free writing or when you're editing or all the time?

More on the grand strategy of the story.

Okay.

And then also in the more important scenes within the story.

Oh, that's interesting.

I would say, because, like, some scenes are more important than others. They have more it's not like some scenes carry more of a message. Like, surely, not all the dialogue is everything's important, but I I think I'm digressing here.

No. I think you're right, though. Not every like, every scene needs to be there, but there are certain scenes that are, like, those are the ones you're gonna remember. You know? I mean, like, when you're battling middle earth or whatever.

Like, obviously, we're going to Battle earth. Yeah.

I I think I'm gonna I'll go back to, like, what I said earlier. Like Mhmm. I think about it from, like, I wanna take my character from a to b Yeah. From problem to solution. And then how do I do that?

You know, when you think too hard about creating an interesting character, it's not gonna take you anywhere. You're like, how do I make them more interesting? Well, everyone is gonna have their own opinions on a character. Not everyone's gonna like certain characters, but it's your who your reader is. Like, who are you trying to reach that you want them to relate to the most?

So, for example, my first book, Broken and Beautiful, I wrote it for people who struggle with loneliness a lot.

Mhmm.

And so I I wrote the main character in a way to where she can relate to people who struggle with loneliness. That's what I wanted my reader to take away from. And then as she goes through a story of going from feeling lonely to finding friendship

Mhmm.

In a way. So that's my take.

Yeah. Yeah. I like how do you feel about side characters? Do you do the same thing with them?

Well, I I wrote a lot of characters in my first book. So every side character is important to me, actually. And so in that in Broken the Beautiful, my first one, I wrote a lot of side characters, but they each had their own theme and struggle to them. So and they were all important in their own way because their struggle and their story affected the main character

Right.

In my first book.

You put a lot of thought into this book.

There there was a lot of thought into that. That's my first book, broken to beautiful. So, yeah, that one was a passion project. That was for sure.

But I think that's I I really like that you did that because that I feel like in the indie especially in the indie author world, but maybe maybe in traditional, there seems to be a push and thankfully it's slowing down of, like, getting the books done quicker. And I don't think that you're always able to produce the book that you're the most proud of when you are, you know, like you're feeling pressured to get it out, you know? So I think like taking the time to think about it, because had you not, like, thought about each side character, there's a lot of books that you read where you're like, I don't know why that side character is there.

Yeah.

Ingrid Finkley.

Yeah. Like, even side characters have their value. And I like, this isn't like me personally. I always I like the deeper stuff. I don't just, like, like, whitewash whatever.

I'm like, oh, yeah. I I've listened to that book. I read it, and then I forgot about it. It's like, no. Yeah.

It was an entertaining story, but I didn't really learn anything from it. And I'm like, well, that's not enough for me. I I like the deeper stuff. I want people to enjoy my stories, but I want them to take something away from it as well. Yeah.

So my story writing can be a little raw sometimes.

Yeah. Yeah.

And some of the scenes can be a little dark, but there is hope to them. So, like, I always come back to, like, what do I want my reader to take away from this? You know? And, like, what are these characters telling my reader through the struggles that they are going through? So that's what I think about a lot.

No. I think that that's I think when you think about your readers, you will create the characters that will stick with them because Mhmm. You're not just producing something. You know? It's not just a story.

It's now a story that is for a particular person in the world. And a lot of indie you know, if you're going out and looking at, like, getting involved in the indie author world or the book world, a lot of people will talk about the ideal reader, which is what you're talking about. But I don't know that they really hit home how important it is because I think everyone kinda wants to whitewash this idea of, like, you know, their your book is for, you know, for

everyone gonna read it.

Yeah. It's just not true. And there are like, again, I just finished a book last night that I was like, oh, it could have been so much more if you had just been encouraged to take this character deeper. You know what I mean? Like, it because I I feel it.

Like, I can feel the indie authors just get something out there

Mhmm.

Versus how book writing has always been where it was take your time to produce a book that's for your reader. You know? And we gotta find a middle ground there, some sometime, it's gotta all settle. I feel like it needs to settle at some point.

I emphasize quality a lot more in my story. So I put a lot of effort thinking about the characters, like, and even the side characters too. Yeah. Of, like, how do my side characters impact the main character, but also how do my side characters impact the reader as well?

Right.

So, like, you know, there's no unimportant character in the story.

Yeah. I I think that's how it really should be because if you think about the books that live longer in you, you can you can dissect them and think, no. You can't take out anything from those books. They are stripped down to exactly what they need to be. You know, even if you like how like The Great Gatsby, you can't take somebody out of that book No.

And it be the same book, you know. So they don't have anything added to it or or left out of it. And I think that's because they did think about what they wanted the book to be. You know, Fitzgerald, like, this is what I want the book to be. Mhmm.

And, of course, like you said, not everyone's gonna love it. That's okay. It but it is the book that you want it to be, and it's meant for the readers that love it.

Like Exactly. It's meant for those readers.

Yes.

Yeah. Exactly. I don't typically write a story just to write a story. I'm like, no. I don't have that drive in me.

I I feel like I'm more of, like, a a storyteller than just a writer. Yeah. Because if there's no point to a story, then I don't wanna write it.

Then it's an anecdote.

Exactly. You just because, like, I see all these, like, stories and shows and even TV shows, and I'll watch them, enjoy them. But then at the end of it, I'll ask, well, what what was the point of all of that? Yeah. You know?

And when there's no point, then I'm like, well, I don't really care about that then.

Yeah. Once you realize it, you're like, I don't care. Why are we doing this? And I have better things to do with my life. I've watched this.

You know what? I'm I'm outside of DC, so I was watching the agency or diplomat or something like, you know, CIA.

The diplomat.

Probably the diplomat. Was it the group? Former state department friends was like, that's such a stupid show. And then she went through why it's stupid, and I was like, you're right. She totally ruined it for me.

Did she tell

you what?

An analyst would never become an ambassador. Right. It's

like Desperate times, I guess.

Yeah. Like, I I was like, man. You know? But had I couldn't even come with counterpoints because I was like, yeah. That is true.

And they were gonna make your fight VP. You know? Like, you're just simply feel like

When you look at the cliff notes for majority of, like, the stories out there and you're like, this is ridiculous. Why would I even watch this?

This is

And a lot of people watch it and you're like, okay. That worked.

Yeah. Okay. And then there's that. There's, like, some things that you're like, it still works somehow, you know? Yeah.

Somehow people, like, liked it. You just never know. I I really think it comes down to the characters resonate with people somehow. Like, whether the plot is stupid or not, you know, the characters resonate with people.

Yes.

I mean, Independence Day is a stupid plot, but Will Smith's character resonated. Not only him but, like, the president and then the drunk who, like, sacrifices himself. My kids just rerushed it. And I was like, actually, they chose the really good characters and they chose correctly who sacrificed. I was like, well, interesting.

That's why we all watched it 500 times.

And when you say, like, oh, yeah. The drunk sacrificed himself. I'm like, that's a redemptive arc right there. Right. People like that.

They love it. And it had to be him. It couldn't be Will Smith and it couldn't be the president. I don't know. What was his name?

Anyway, whatever. We're getting off topic now. Yeah. But when you start realizing the things that have stayed, you do realize it is the characters. Right?

Like, it is what they put into those characters that resonated with us even if we didn't really like them. But if their arc makes sense, then you go, well, yeah. Obviously.

Exactly. And you, like, grow to, like, root for these characters, and you you like watching the characters grow as they make mistakes, and then they can learn from them or not. And then you start to, like, root for them. Like, yeah. Yeah.

Like, keep going. I wanna see Yeah. Where they are, like, end up at by the end of this. And and it's great.

Want. Right? That's what we want for our characters. Mhmm. I wanna ask you because there are a a couple people who listen who are writing in Christian fiction.

Yes. And there is something, like, in the Christian fiction world, there's still a lot of diversity of like, that's a very broad genre, right, in, like, how you write the Christian fiction. So how have you, handled that, like, all the different ways that you can come, like, approach Christian fiction and market the Christian fiction? There are people that have it's it's, you know, sort of subtle and people it's very overt. And so how how has your journey been there?

Well, I like to take my, like, my characters through the inward journey when it comes to portraying Christian fiction. So for example, in my first book, Broken to Beautiful, I show a lot of the thought process for, like, alright. How does, like, if how does a person go from, like, not being a Christian to being a Christian? Like, what is the process like? And, like, because not everyone just, like, snaps their fingers and, like, I'm gonna I'm gonna believe this today.

Yes. It's like, no. So, like, I take my time and I, like, gradually take my character through these points that lead them in a direction towards becoming a Christian throughout the story. And I use a lot of real questions that people have. I'm like, okay.

Well, how do you know god exists?

Yeah.

You know? I was like, why did you become a Christian? Why do you believe in Jesus Christ? And and, like and I put those questions into the story. I'm like, okay.

How do you know it's real? And, like, what's the setting? And so I have the character who is thinking of these things. I have them ask people. I'm like, okay.

Like, well, like, how did you end up in this church? Like, why do you go to church and everything? And I show a lot of the inward thoughts, like, both the positive and the negative of, like Yeah. Like, the doubts as well of, like, what if this is all just a hoax? Like, what if this is, like, not real?

But then I also show, you know, the curiosity of, like, well, what if it is real? And, like, what does that mean if it is real? Like, I take my character. She'll, like, read the Bible and be like, oh, she's reading the book of Genesis. And in, like, the book of Genesis, she reads about the, the story of Noah and the ark.

And at the end of Noah and the ark, it says that God created the rainbow. And so I'm like, like, I have the character ask, like, well, where did the rainbow come from? And, like, why do we have it? And then just for fun, I put a rainbow in the story and she's like, okay. That's a little interesting that I'd see a rainbow now all of a sudden.

Yeah. Yeah. I like that.

Yeah.

So that one is more overtly Christian where you're literally, she's walking through, Yes. Romans Road, I guess. So she's really walking through her her struggling with her faith and, like, what it what it means. Yeah. Is your apocalyptic fiction like that?

It's a little bit like that, but it's a little different. I jumped genres a lot. So in my second book called The Lost Saint, it's very different. Like, I still show a lot of the inward struggles of Christian characters.

Mhmm.

But it's also like an action story at the same time. So I I kinda diverge a little bit more. Like, the the The Lost Saint is more like the book of Eli, if you've ever watched that movie. I'm not sure if you can.

Yeah. I love that movie. It's it was I, like, sat and thought about it. I was on a plane. I was like,

what?

I totally did not even, like I wasn't thinking the whole time. I was just totally swallowing it, and then I was like, o m g. Now I have to rewatch this.

Yeah.

It was so good.

Yeah. And so when I, like as a Christian and, like, trying to portray a Christian journey, I put a lot of the effort into the mindset. Like, what are the characters thinking

Yeah.

Versus what's going on around them. A lot of the events in the stories happen inside the minds of the characters of, like, what are they thinking about, and how does that affect them essentially. And so I'll, like, take my character through, like, a morally questionable scenario of, like, oh, like, he's a Christian man, but he just had to fight a couple people because he's out in the middle of nowhere and people are trying to kill him. So it's like, oh, he's like, I just had to defend myself. You know?

How do I feel about that? It's like Yeah.

Those are good questions, though. Yeah. Because it makes you think, like, I mean and if you read the bible, David's men that one dude killed 300 and you're like, wow. That's that's pretty crazy.

Exactly. And, like, I go I always think back to the reader. I'm like, because I want my readers to think about it. I'm like, they they I want them to read a scene and be like, oh, that makes me think a little bit. And I want them to take something away from that.

Like, oh, like, well, what would you do if you were in that scenario? Did this person act justly or not? And I wanna make my reader think and, like, be a little different after they read a scene.

Yeah. Yeah. I I really like that. I think if most of us break it down like that, even if you, like, free write and then go back and edit or if you're doing it, you know, more plotting or whatever, if you think about the writer and what they're taking away from it. And that's a really simple way to edit, right?

And just to like think of it, read your story differently in order to have that, that product that's, that's gonna hit the ideal reader more. Like, we're gonna talk about the ideal reader more than an you know, like you said, it's not for everyone. So are you gonna continue with apocalyptic? Are you gonna work on something on a whole another genre?

Let's just say that this is all gonna be a very long journey. So, yes, I'm going to continue with the apocalyptic. It's gonna be a whole series. But sometime in the future, I will get back to writing more Slice of Life Christian stories as well. It's just this whole process is going to take me a really long time.

But I mean, we have our whole lives. Right?

We have

our whole

lives. So

Until the world ends, basically.

Exactly. So we'll see when that happens. But yeah. But I will get around to all of those stories. Yeah.

So I got my whole life to you, so we're gonna do it.

Have you have you found that the readers are like, there's a that they're different groups or are they kind of like a little bit is there a Venn diagram of readers that's that read both? Or do you have to market them just Christian like, different Christian fiction?

I think it's safe to say that they're gonna be different groups, I would say. Just because, like

Just it's harder for yourself.

Well, you know what? This whole journey has been difficult, and nothing's easy, but, you know, that's fine. It's the harder the journey is, the better the character development Right. Exactly. Both for me and the characters.

No. I I think they're gonna be different groups just because the slice of life story appeals more to just anyone who's like, oh, if you struggle with loneliness or depression or even, like, suicidal thoughts in there too, like, this like, my first book, Broken and Beautiful, that's for you. You know, if you know anyone who struggles with that stuff, like, I recommend you read it. And then but then, like, The Lost Saint story, that's gonna be more to us, like, alright. If you're a guy and you like action, but you like morally questionable scenarios

Yeah.

Then give the lost saint a read and just more inner a little more entertainment value.

You're a Tolkien reader. You're gonna like this. Like, but I mean, I love like the the hunger games. I love that it's, you know, these morally questionable moments. If you're in these certain worlds, what would you do?

I think those are good. I think a lot of people like this, but you're right. You're probably going to have to market them very differently. Different maybe readers.

That's a whole other animal to tackle.

Yeah. Let's just tackle our writing first and then we get to Oh my gosh.

It's enough already.

I know. Nobody said, you know, if you knew all this way back when, you know, you probably would have been like, no. I I don't want to

do this. No. I would have done it anyway. I I like, God called me to write a book. So I'm like, I gotta do this whether I might want to or not.

You'll be like, you market it now. You could do that. All you did is I wrote it.

Okay? I

wrote it. If only it were that simple. So where can people find out more of you? You've done a lot of you're out there talking about characters if people if this really resonates the way that Jake is talking about characters and developing them. I suggest you go to his website which is author Jake Lynch which we will have in the show notes, because you do talk about it quite a bit which is nice.

And but I do think everyone learns like it's like a layering of learning about storytelling and then at some point it clicks and you go, go, oh, yes. I can go write my story now. Right? But where can people find your books? And are you on social media?

I am on social media. You can find me on Instagram. It's author Jake Lynch. So at author Jake Lynch, you can can find me there. You can find me on my website at authorjakelynch.com.

That's Lynch as in l y n c h. And, yeah, I'm also on Facebook and, yeah, that that's where you can find me.

All the places. So we'll have the links in the show notes. So thank you so much for coming and talking about characters because that is something we have to do all the day. Thank you.

I'm also on Amazon too.

Oh, yes. We will put the links to both books in the in the show notes, because they're definitely different. So

They're very different.

Well, thank you so much, Jake, for coming on.

Thank you for having me, Kat. It's been wonderful speaking with you.