Ep 301 Voice Over Perfection with Jessica Snyder

Welcome to Pencils and Lipstick. This is a podcast for indie authors. I'm Cat Caldwell, novelist, short story writer, and book coach. Here on Pencils and Lipstick, we're obsessed with bold things story, and it is my goal to bring you the writing tips that you need to make your novel come to life. Hello, everyone.

Welcome back to Pencils and Lipstick. This is episode 301 of the podcast, and it is March 8 as I record this. So we are just trucking along in 2026. Today, we have an interview with Jessica Snyder. If you don't know about Jessica, she runs the AGA club.

I'll be talking about her in just a second. She is gonna be talking to us about, editing. She's gonna give us quite a few hints, and tips and tricks about it. But before we get into the interview, let me just remind you guys that next week is our second craft and connect episode. We are going to be talking about the core values of building your marketing brand.

I am going to be telling Becky about my core values that I have chosen, and she's going to ask me questions about them. And then we are going to go into newsletters. Newsletters are absolutely essential to your author brand, to your business. So, and I am going to try to convince you of it, and there will be free resources in the show notes next week. And be sure to check out the show notes this week.

You'll be checking out, Jessica's website and she has a couple of freebies over there when you get on her newsletter, because that is the sort of pillar of your business, really, like any online business needs a newsletter. So if you don't know how to set up a newsletter that is going to be in the free resource next week. It's just like a little kind of mini course, like a crash course, really on like all of the, the points about newsletter marketing. And then, there's a little handout next week of ideas on what you can talk about in your newsletter. I think that is the hardest, and I think that's probably where most people get their overwhelm is like, oh my gosh, now I have to write a newsletter and what do I tell people?

So anyway, be sure to come back next week and listen to the episode. And then if you haven't already signed up, there's still a couple seats left. And honestly, it's the the places have gone quicker than we thought that they would go. But the craft and connect live, the very first one, is going to be on March 24 at 1PM eastern. And that is going to be Becky and I ready to take your questions.

We are going to be setting sending out, like, a little form next week in case you, you know, have a scheduling conflict or in case you don't wanna talk live, you will be able to send in your question ahead of time if you wish. But you can also just come and talk to us, and ask questions. And you can ask us any sort of question from like marketing to, to publishing basically. So Becky will be there and I will be there. So it looks like we are about halfway through the seats.

I left 60 seats open. That's a lot of people. So we have 30 people already signed up. If you want to be there and only the people who sign up for the live will get the link to the recording and the recording will be available for sixty days. And then we'll have another one in June.

And the reason I'm not going to keep it available forever is because I I don't I'm not sure that anything will really stay that relevant and it's going to kind of encourage you guys to come to the next live. So the next live will be in June. So if you can't make this one and, you know, you don't wanna keep the recording or or watch the recording, then you can come in June and we're going to, sort of take a poll on what time of day might be a little easier for people. So we will be changing the time. You know, it can't be like three in the morning here, so there's that.

But be sure to sign up and come, and and, yeah, hang hang out with us. It'll be about an hour and a half long, and you are allowed to come and go as you please. You don't have to stay the whole time. You don't have to come on time either. Alright.

So that's my pitch for you. If you, are listening, please subscribe, leave a review. We haven't had any reviews for a while. That would, that always helps the algorithm. Although there are so many, apps out there in which people, listen to the podcast.

So it's hard to tell you where to give a review, but the top apps are Spotify or Apple. So if you happen to be listening on those, giving a review is always helpful. And then more than anything, just sharing about the podcast, always helps. It helps get, the writer in your life, getting them tips and inspiration and encouragement, and then all of my guests, of course, it gets their name out there as well. So we're always appreciative of any sharing that you do.

So today we are talking with Jessica Snyder. The amazing thing about Jessica is that she, has had clients ranging from Pippa Grant to Lucy Score to indie authors. Like she has worked, with Entangle Publishing. She worked for them for four years. She worked from her way up from an intern to an editorial assistant.

And she worked with people such as Kelly Jamieson and Carly Bloom. And now she is an independent, editor and mostly for indie authors. And she has created the HEA author services, which has the HEA club, and has a whole team of coaching and editing services as well as online courses. So she is really honed in on helping, especially romance writers edit their books and edit them well so that indie authors, you know, that you can't really tell the difference in quality between an indie author or a traditionally published author. So she has an extensive resume.

She has lots of experience, and I think it's really important to listen to people who have worked in both the traditional field and in the independent field, because I think that they have, just so much wisdom to share with us. So she says that she's also spent five years in the US army as an Arabic interpreter, so she's a little bit particular when it comes to military romance. So if you are writing military romance, you might want to check out, work with Jessica to make sure that all of the things are correct. There's a lot of, you know, acronyms and different, things about the military that you might not know if you're not in it. So we're gonna go straight into the interview today.

There isn't a whole lot more to update you guys on other than what I already gave you with the craft and connect live. So, I cannot wait for you guys to hear from Jessica. Okay. So I'm excited to speak with Jessica Snyder today. Hi, Jessica.

How are you doing?

I'm good. Thank you for inviting me.

Oh, I'm really excited to talk to you. You come highly recommended by a mutual friend. So, we are going to get into editing and romance books and all the things. But before we do, can you tell us just a little bit about yourself and how you got into coaching?

Sure. So my name is Jessica Snyder, and I have been a romance reader since I was probably 11 or 12. I always thought that if I liked it so much that the only option was to write, and then I went to my first Romance Writers of America conference in 2012. When I was there, I won breakfast with the editors for Harlequin Carina, which was their digital first, line. And so sat down with the editors at breakfast, talked to them, and realized, oh, wait.

There's another way that I can do this that isn't writing because writing has always felt really difficult, and I never wanna finish

Yeah. A project.

I have, like, a bunch of fun ideas, and then it'll just kinda get those down on paper and then I'm done. So after that, I realized that editing was a thing I could do. I I felt like it was better suited for me. And I applied for an internship with Entangled Publishing in 2013. So I still had a full time corporate job at the time.

And I stayed with them for about four years. I was an editorial assistant to several senior editors and so I got to see how publishing worked from that side of it. And then I started freelancing in 2016 and in 2020 I was able to quit my corporate job and go into this full time. So editing, coaching, I have some online courses, I have a membership group, a lot

of different ways. Yeah. Isn't it funny how we think there's only, like, one way to do things? You know, like, I wanna work in film. I must be an actor.

Exactly. But there are so many other options.

That's so cool. What what made you go to the conference? Were you still trying to, like, I gotta figure out how to write and that's why you went?

I was writing. I had joined Romance Writers of America, I think, the first time in, like, 2004 probably. So I knew, like, the organization was out there. I was on the mailing list. Going to a conference seemed like a lot of fun.

I had some other writer friends who would be there, and so they kind of held my hand and walked me through it. And it was definitely a learning experience and it helped, like, move everything I'm doing.

Yeah. That's so cool. To

editing. Yeah.

It like, life is so much like that. You're like, you make one choice and it opens a giant door

Mhmm.

Into, like like, who knows what would have happened, you know, maybe you would have figured it out, but, like, winning breakfast with people and being like, oh, I could actually help people get their books better and, like, to market. That sounds exciting.

Yeah. Exactly.

And especially if you're, like, a good ideas person. So, like, I love how you put your CliftonStrengths, like, your learner input, that's me. Oh my gosh. All I I'm like, I'm just always listening to stuff. Sometimes I'm like, stop.

Just silence would be good. Mhmm. But you need, like, writers, I think more than anything, need somebody to bounce ideas off of. Do you what do you think about that?

I think it depends on the type of writer. Okay. So I definitely like, going back to CliftonStrengths, I don't have high ideation. I think ideation is at the bottom of my strengths. However, the other strengths that I have, like learner and input and analytical and these others, make it so I can see what's happening and what's working with other people, and then I can offer that or adjust it if necessary.

So don't have my own ideas, but I can regurgitate everybody else's.

Well, so the story is, right? We're taking, like, there's no new story. We're like, we're rearranging.

Exactly. So, yeah, I definitely have authors who want to bounce ideas and they want a plot and they get stuck and they don't know where to go next and we can work through that. And then I have other authors where they're very set. They know exactly what they want to do and they just need some help with the execution of it.

Okay. Alright. So when you started your internship, like, you you had been writing, but you hadn't necessarily been editing. So what what was that process of, like, I can become an editor? And what what did that mean?

Like, to get that that certification, I guess, to be that type of thing.

So it was nothing official. Basically one of the senior editors in Untangled put out a call on Twitter, said she was looking for an intern.

I loved it when Twitter was like that. It was so fun. Yeah.

And I've never been, like, a big social media person. I don't like being on social media. But at the breakfast with Harlequin, they had said, check out Entangled, follow them on Twitter, because sometimes when they're looking for interns, that's where they put the call. And it was, I don't know, four or six months later that the call went out. And so, the editor had said these are the types of books that she works on.

Entangled was only publishing romance and, You at the time. So I knew it was gonna be romance, whatever it was, and it's my favorite genre. So she said these are the types of books that I like. These are the types of books that I want to work on. Therefore, these are the types that you would be working on if you're interested.

And it it was kind of like, it was an interview process, but very different from anything I had ever done before, obviously. And then once it started, she was a mentor to me, and she taught me what they were actually looking for. So I would read through slash pile submissions. So, authors who weren't agented could just submit directly to Entangled. And, I would read through those, and I would say yay or nay on them.

And I knew like, I I had a rubric that we were working on.

Right. Right.

And this is what Entangled is looking for. So it was easier to say, yes. This is a good fit or, no, this isn't. Okay. After I'd done that for, I don't know, probably six or eight months, I was, upgraded, I guess, or promoted to editorial assistant.

But it was still mostly unpaid work, and it was mostly volunteer, but I absolutely love doing it because I got to learn so much from it. Oh, that's cool. I was editing where I would do the first pass at it, and then the senior editor would come back behind me. And we would go over, like, what I had shown and what she had shown and, like, where there might be a disconnect or Okay. Basically just teaching me how to do the edit itself.

And it worked amazing that they were willing to do that for you. Like, I don't know if that's usual or not. Is it It

was a training process, but it got to the point that the editor could hand things off to the editorial assistant. The assistant could do basically a lot of the first pass work. And then when the editor came in, they were doing kind of that second pass deeper work. And right. I think it it made it easier for them and also gave them the chance to go deeper with the story.

Right. It was worth their time to teach you. Mhmm.

Yeah. Exactly.

And you just got in at the right I think, like, the industry at that point, it's just the right time.

Everything was changing. Yeah. Because ebooks were still, like, 2010, 2011. A lot of times, it was still, like, a PDF that somebody emailed you.

It certainly was.

That was not a comfortable way to read. Right? And then the Kindle came out and everything changed.

Yeah. Yeah. But you were willing to do it for free. And and that that sometimes is is a good life lesson of, like, if you're if you love something and you're willing and you're, like, being taught something incredible Mhmm. It's worth doing it.

Right? Like, that

is It was worth my time to learn that skill set knowing that I could do something with it in the future as opposed to, you know, picking up a new hobby or watching TV or something like that.

Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Oh, that's really cool. So when when you're looking, like, through the Slushpile, even though you you mostly work with indie authors now, but, like, Slushpile, like, that's still kind of writing to market.

Right? Like, learning how like, what the market is looking for. So how is it that they choose, like, are they looking at what readers are are reading or are they kind of trying to move the market or, like, what what do you see as, like, this industry? How how we figure that out?

So the traditional publishing houses, and Tangled is traditional, they want to buy books that they can sell.

Mhmm.

Right? So a lot of it came down to, does the author have a good strong voice that we can work on? Because it's harder to teach voice than it is, like, the technical structure of a book. Interesting. So if you're a good storyteller, we can teach you how to write.

But if you're kind of a boring storyteller, it's harder to teach you to be interesting than it is to teach you how goal, motivation, and conflict work. No. That's a good point. Yeah. So so author, voice and style was always pretty big.

And then, you know, just some some genres and subgenres within romance sell better than others.

Mhmm.

And so if Entangled didn't think that they could sell something in particular, then we wouldn't want that style of book, whether it was, you know, dystopian romance, which wasn't very big at the time. Like, 02/1314, if somebody had submitted something like horror romance, serial killer romance, we probably would have said no because there was no market for it at that point, at least none that the company could see. So a lot of it is what's working in the market, what are readers buying, also, like, what's just happening in kind of pop culture in general, what's happening with movies, which what's happening with TVs, how is that going to translate to books? Because a lot of times when we see big pop culture moments happen in TV or movies, it takes longer for those to be created. Like, the the production process is longer.

But indie authors especially can see something happen and put a book out within two to four

weeks. That's true. So how much do you think that influences these days, like, books influencing Netflix versus Netflix influencing books? Like, should authors be kind of on, like, the radar always looking around at different cultural events?

I think they should. I don't know, like, what the balance would be between where where are books coming first and where are movies or TV coming first. But I think it is important to know what's happening kind of in the the cultural zeitgeist. Yeah. And what do what what are people enjoying when they sit down to watch?

And can you translate that into a book? And are you the type of writer that can, you know, optimize and get it out quickly enough? If there's, like, a big wave of something, can you ride that wave? Or if you're a slower writer and you know it's gonna take six or nine months before you can put a book out, do you think it's worth it to focus on something that's trending right this instant? Or do you wanna fall back on something that's more, stable and has been around for a longer time and just go back to, like, your main tropes and your main character styles.

So it it everything I say, my answer is always it depends to almost every question you're going to ask.

It's it's so we're always looking for, like, that golden silver bullet. Right? As a writer, it's like yeah. But that's, I mean, this this is really these are truths that really should sink in. If you are a fast writer, you can probably ride more more trend waves.

If not, like, there are stories that are pretty consistent, like, for years, and you can pretty much keep that wave going.

And even, like, if if traditional marketing or traditional publishing says that a particular subgenre is dead, like, for years and years and years, we heard that vampires were dead. Vampires have always sold. So, like, ad publishing may not wanna put money into it because they think they can make more money on a different type of story. But indie authors can keep putting out vampire books, and there are still readers for those books. It's just not the huge wave that maybe was there when, Twilight.

That t True Blood when True Blood was finally turned into a TV show or with the Anita Blake wave back in, like, the early two thousands. It goes up and down, but there will still be readers for it. You just have to find them. And sometimes it's a little bit more difficult to find them when it's a lot it's not the 400,000,000 people that want romantousy right now.

Yeah.

It's something different. Right? So that's just a new wave. You have to find your readers within all the ones that are out

there. Yeah. Yeah. That's true. And, like and, eventually, you have to settle in what are you good at storytelling.

Like, you know, and if like, I I wish I could've run the romantic. I really admire it, but I was like, I can't come up with anything. So better not better not try, you know, to, like, put out something bad than actually write something that I'm good at writing.

Exactly. Yeah. It's always better to double down on what you know you can do well because you can make exponential gains on something you're intrinsically good at, where you can make baby step gains on something you're intrinsically not good at. So why focus on that stuff when you know you can do so much better on something that you have skill and the desire to work on?

So true. That's why I like the CliftonStrengths. Like, you're focusing on what you're good at rather than, like, focusing on developing all the things that you're not good at. Right? So so as you were learning to, like, get through the slush piles and then editing it, and you said, like, they were looking for the the voice, And, like, can you talk a little bit more about that because I think sometimes writers aren't sure what that means.

I like how you said it was like a storytelling, but what is it that that that fully encompasses when it comes to, like, something that translates into a book that really, like, just speaks to the readers. Right? Mhmm.

A lot of it is especially as new authors, it takes a while to kind of settle into your voice and figure out what the best way forward is for you. Voice is kind of that, like, not well defined, everybody has it, but we don't know how to talk about it kind of thing. But it's basically it's how you write. So it's the words you use. It's the the structure and the cadence that you use in your sentences.

But it's also the types of stories that you like to tell, the types of characters that you like to have in the book, the themes, the tropes, the universal fantasy, all of that comes into and combines to make your particular voice. So if you have a favorite author, a lot of times if somebody just handed you a book and opened it up to the middle and didn't tell you who had written it, you can read a couple pages and be like, oh, wait, that's a Nora Roberts book. And I recognize that because I know she writes like this. I know she uses this kind of structure. I know that she has these types of characters who have this type of banter.

All of that comes into voice. So everyone has it, but especially as a new author, we're trying to figure out where we are in the world and how we're going to write. And so a lot of times you won't have as strong of a voice because you wanna make sure that you're doing things the right way. And you wanna make sure that you're not too far out of, like, whatever the the kind of median is because you don't wanna sound too wild or too boring or anything like that. But at the same time, that can strip the voice out of it.

So when you're just learning, you just have to keep writing and and determine, like, what works for you, what you enjoy about it. Focus on that, and then the voice will automatically come from it.

Do you think new writers should keep writing the book that they have, or should they like, finding the voice, have you have you seen, like, the development of voice in authors that you've worked with with, like, what are some of the ways that they have just sort of, like, found that that right that, I guess, that nugget of who they're gonna be? Is it writing short stories? Is it writing other things? Is it just working on one book? I bet I would say it depends.

It does depend. I generally say you can only write to the best of your current ability. And so what you can write on your first book is going to look different from what your best ability is on your third book is going to look very different from what your best ability was on your tenth book. Right? So do the best you can, but there has to be a point where you hit that diminishing returns and you say, okay.

I could keep trying to perfect this thing that I already created at a first level skill set, or I can move on and start over with something new because I'm now at a second level skill set because I put all that work into the first. So for each person, obviously, it's going to be different.

Right.

But at some point, if the first story just isn't working or it's not getting the traction that you want, I think it's time to move on to the second story because you can take everything you've learned and put it into that second one, where that first one, you're kinda locked into what you wrote Yeah. On on day one. Right? Yeah. So finding that balance and where you do that is gonna be different for every person.

Some people wanna go back and just start over completely with book one and rewrite it from scratch. Some people wanna throw it under the bed in a box, never look at it again and start book two. Some people just come up with a new brand name altogether, and they're like, we're just gonna start over, try a new genre, see what what happens there. So it depends.

But you gotta you gotta kind of you gotta kind of get the full story out, you know, somehow, like, however you're going to do it, whether you publish it or not. Like, I do think finishing the story, like, if you are a writer, if you can actually finish the story and then see learn from that, that's when you can really go forward. Right? Like but that cycle, I think you're so right. Like, you have that diminishing return if you just keep going and going and going.

That's something you gotta stop. Right?

Yeah. There's a story that floats around, and it's, like an art professor. And he told one half of his class to make the perfect vase, and he told the other half of his class to make 40 vases. And at the end of the project and that's not exactly it, but basically, at the end of the project, the half of the class that had made 40 vases made a more perfect vase than the one just because they redid it over and over and over, and they had that skill set and they had learned where the one just had that one to work on.

Yeah. So we're we we should stop looking for perfectionism. Like, we just Oh, gosh.

Yeah. Yeah. Because perfection like, there's no definition of perfection. Everyone defines perfection their own way. So even if you find it, there's still gonna be a reader other who hates it and is gonna tell you in a review.

So true.

Right? And

and that's the thing. Like, if you the you know, all you can take any book that is huge on BookTok right now as this episode goes out, and you're gonna find people who hated it or can pick it apart or it's not that good or the writing or the store or whatever. Right? Like, it's

And they have very specific reasons, and they are right about all just opinion.

Yes. So how do you take, you because you have a membership, you have coaching. How do you help people? Do you focus more on, like, figure out storytelling? Because in the last few years, that is what I have really come down to.

It's like you need to understand what a story is and how to tell a story. Mhmm. And I think we're all we're all capable of it, but there are, you know, some people who tell it a little bit differently or better. You know, I'd I hate using the word better, but that is something more that we should focus on more than, like, the perfect sentence, you know, or whatever. Whatever else we get caught up on.

Right. The bulk of my work is still editing, and I mostly do developmental, which is kinda overall story edits. Right. Right. I will do some line, which is more about style and and writing and intent, and copy edits, which is more technical grammar.

But mostly what I focus on now for, like, my day to day work is developmental editing. And, like, the the structure and the how to get the story across really comes in there. For the membership group that I have, it's called the HEA Club, and we'll bring in a live presenter each

month.

And so I try to mix that up between sometimes it's just an author coming in and talking about, like, their journey, how they got here. Sometimes it's very writing craft focused, and we're talking about anything from, because it's all romance authors, like how to write sex scenes well to, you know, how to work through goal motivation and conflict or how to build your characters. And then sometimes we'll do business stuff where, you know, it might be someone coming in to talk about writing a blurb, which is kinda kind of between writing craft itself and the business stuff. But you need the blurb to actually sell the book. Right?

And they're hard.

Yeah.

Or I have a, like, a tax accountant came in to talk about taxes, and I've had, cover designers and web designers come in to talk about that part of it.

Because that's all part of it. It's the whole package. Right?

Exactly.

It's interesting. So we have, like and I think there's something about being together and, like, understanding, you know, like, not not having to do it alone as an author is it's pretty helpful.

Yeah. The community aspect is big.

Yes. Yeah. So when when you get into, like, developmental editing, is that something you do in the group or is that something that people outside of the group can also work with you on?

Mhmm. No. That's just me being a freelance editor, and so it's usually indie authors that I work with. They'll reach out and say that they have a romance novel because I only work on romance, that is ready for a developmental edit. And then I have a team that I work with, with.

And so I think there are seven of us on the team at this point Wow. That do everything from developmental edits down to proofreading. So depending on the type of story and availability and, you know, what the what the author is looking for, then I'll try to match that manuscript with the editor who would be the right fit for it.

Okay. So what what would you say to to romance writers of, like, when is the right moment to send off the manuscripts? Because I I will tell you I have some experience of getting manuscripts and I have to tell them, I don't I don't think that your money is well spent right now getting a developmental edit. I think there's there's some, like, you still need to learn a few things. Otherwise, I'm just taking money for

so I have had that conversation before. Okay. For a developmental edit, a lot of times, it's not on my website, but I will if I'm doing the developmental edit, I'll offer to kinda downgrade it to a critique for the author. And that's generally, like, if the goal motivation conflict isn't set, and that's just the basic story structure that has to be there for the book to make sense. If they're not at that point yet, I'll downgrade them to a critique.

I'll give them kind of overall feedback of two or three things that are working well, but maybe three, four, or five things that still need to be addressed in the story. They'll work on that. And then if they wanna come back for a full dev, we can do that.

Right. Right.

I do try to

though. Because

Right. I don't wanna steal their money either. I I would rather refund it and not work with you at all if you think you can do the work to bring it up to a higher level on yourself. And I'm always, willing to share resources on self editing and writing and things like that. I do try to meet authors where they are.

And so if the goal motivation conflict is there, it's not super strong, but at least we have that main structure in the story, then I'm still willing to work with you on it, and I just want to kinda strengthen that infrastructure. We're gonna make that stronger. If you have nailed GMC and you want to dig into more like a deeper character arc and more themes and symbolism, then I will meet you there and I will help you at that point. But there's no point in me working on themes with someone who's still kinda wobbly when it comes to conflict.

Yes. Okay. So I I came across as I was scrolling on Facebook, and I'm, like, you know how you're entering all these, like, writer and author groups and then all of us, I don't know which one it was, but somebody made a big statement about how they don't think there should, like, I should have to put conflict in my story. And of course, they're I don't know if they were trying to be controversial. I only read that.

What do you think about that? Because I had lots of thoughts of like, what? My thought is you're an indie author.

You can do whatever you want. You can. You can. You also have to realize what the market is looking for and if you can sell the product that you have created to that market.

Yes.

There is a reader for every single book. There really is. Right? Yes. But there may be fewer readers for a book that has no conflict than there are for books that have conflict.

So if you come to me and you tell me I want low angst, I want very little conflict, I still want you to do a developmental edit of my book that has no conflict and is just a story of two people dating. I will do my best to provide that for you. Yeah. But if you don't tell me that, then I'm going to come at it from what I consider reader expectations and romance and say we need to have strong GMC to kinda keep people flipping pages because they wanna know what happens next. And if you don't have conflict and you don't have stakes, you often lose that impetus for them to turn the page because they don't really care what's gonna happen.

Yes. It really does come down to not only the, like, your book, but what is your goal, I think, as a long term writer.

Oh, absolutely. Yeah.

Like, if if you just wanna write whatever you wanna write and I I've done that. Like, yeah, I just wanna write this book. Just to know that you might have, like, 10 readers versus 10,000. Right?

Or Exactly. And I think it like, it's the same with marketing too. If you don't want to run ads or you don't wanna be on social media, none of those are required for you to publish a book. No. But it might be required for you to gain more readers.

So you have to know, like you said, what you want to get out of this, out of the book, out of your career, and then make changes or choices at that point to say, okay, yes, this is worth my time or worth my money, or no. This is something that I'm definitely not going to do and if I lose the readers because of it, then so be it.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But you should know. I always tell people, like, at least, like, make the decisions on purpose.

Right? Like, if this is what you're gonna do in your book, like, at least know that you did it on purpose so that when somebody reviews it and says, I don't like that, you say, well, that's fine. You know? It's the worst when you don't do it on purpose and then you're like, should I have done that? You know?

Like, we just have to really face that head on, right, instead of being like, I don't know. Just just make the decision. It's good. It's fine. I agree.

But you can you can dig in your heels. I try to talk to writers because okay. So I always admit I had this misconception when I first started writing of, like, I will work on my draft and I will work on it and work on it and work on it and finally get to the end and I'll reread it, right, and edit it. And I'm doing air quotes for anyone listening. And then it's done, and I send it off to the editor, and they're gonna, like, you know, make some tweaks.

And then but then it won't take that long. And when I get it back and then it but it's done. Like, I love that word done. Right? I'm done.

So how how can we explain this? Because the reality is no. Especially as a new writer, a lot of times I think we get frustrated with how much red there is, how much work is actually on the other end of that Mhmm. What we call the first to twentieth draft that we you know, like, we're actually sent it off to the editor. So how do you communicate that, I guess, to authors when you're like a developmental edit means how much more work is is coming to them.

So, like, when somebody books with me, I don't immediately tell them, you know, this is what you may get, and it may take you this long to work through it. Even new authors. I have people who can get an eight page developmental letter back from me, and they can work on it and have a revision done in two or three weeks. And then there are people where it takes six months.

Yes.

Absolutely. So yeah. I think what's important I'm gonna kind of flip your question around. What's important is you figuring out what you need from the editor and finding the editor who's going to provide that.

Oh, that's that's a new okay.

So, like, I have I have friends who when they send a developmental, edit letter out, it could be 20 pages long. And I've seen editors that send say they send 40 or 50 page letters.

Oh,

wow. If I received that, I'd be like, f this. I'm out. I'm never running again. I'm gonna go find a new That's

a whole book in itself. Oh my goodness. Yes.

But there are some people who want that much feedback.

Okay.

And so I think it's important to talk to the editor editor, find out what they're going to provide you and make sure that matches up with what you want. If people ask, and I think I have it, it might be on on the website somewhere. But if people ask, the letters from me and my team usually range from, like, five to 10 pages.

And if

you're a stronger author, it's probably gonna be a little bit less in the letter, and we'll put a lot more I don't wanna say stronger author. If you are a more experienced author.

Mhmm.

It'll be a shorter letter with more specific comments on the document saying, you know, hey, this was great, or I think this needs to be addressed, or I think you can strengthen this here. If you're a newer author or if you've never received a developmental letter before, then it's gonna be more in the letter, more explanation, more definition of why I'm I'm suggesting this thing, whatever it is. Yeah. And probably fewer comments in the document because I want you to get more of the overview and not be overwhelmed by the things I'm asking you to change

Yeah.

Line by line.

No. But getting that definition is so nice because you if you're the here, if you're, it's in the document show, don't tell, show, don't tell, and you don't know what that means. Or like, can you dig deeper? I remember getting that dig a little deeper in the character. What

am I digging for? What's happening?

I have no idea. That can be way more overwhelming than reading through 10 pages and being like, oh, I can do that. Mhmm. Right? Like, I can go back and fix that.

But but really, at least I want people to understand there will be work at the end. Like, you do have to you can't just accept all changes.

On a dev edit, you definitely can't. I do I when it comes to line editing or copy editing, once you've worked with an editor a couple of times and you're comfortable with them, I do suggest you just accept all.

Yeah. Yeah.

Rather than clicking through on 14,000 revisions in your document, and then just read through, make sure nothing sounds weird

or

is incorrect. And then you're done. And it's amazing. And it was so easy, but you need to have a relationship with that editor. You need to know their style and that it matches up with your style before you can just hit that accept all button.

On the demo edit, though, like, you're probably rewriting. You're cutting. You might be moving chapters around. You might be inserting or removing entire characters, and so there's definitely more work involved there.

Yes. There's always like, I think we need a whole chapter on this, and you go, oh. Okay. Okay.

The town got to work.

I guess so. But it's it's great. I think you learn the most on the developmental edits as a writer. You're really you're really seeing how what you put on the page is translating to an entirely new brain because we're trying to get a story. Right?

But you just don't know if you're if it's getting there until somebody completely new reads it because if I reread my story, I already know what's happening, and it's weird how And

you know what you meant.

Yes. Yeah. It's so funny when people are like, I don't know what this means. And you go, well, how do you not know what that means? Because my brain understands it.

With the CliftonStrengths, I'm a big strengths nerd, and so a lot of my authors have become big strengths nerd because I kinda shoved them into it. But what we've learned is writers with high empathy, a lot of times, aren't good about showing emotion on the page because as they write it, they're feeling all the emotions that's happening. And so they think it's there, but they never actually type the words because it's just all inside of them.

Oh, that's so important to know. Yeah. Oh, I love that.

And then I've learned, authors with low context, I will often ask a lot of why questions. Like, how did how did we get here? Why did this person make this decision? What happened to lead up to this point? And it's just because their brain doesn't work on that context function like mine does, where I'm looking for the steps that got us there.

They're like, no, we're here and this is what's happening. I need to know why.

Yeah. Yeah. Oh, that's so interesting. And do you do you go, like, incorporate strengths in the in the membership?

It's not incorporated. If I know what people's strengths are, like, if they share it with me, then, that gives me an idea of kind of how they think sometimes. And if I can adjust the way that I'm delivering information to make it easier for them to understand what I'm trying to to communicate, then I I will use it for that.

Yeah.

And then we've had, like, we've had strengths coaches come in and and talk to the group before also, but it's not like a a specific part of the membership.

It's just an interesting thing, especially as a writer. I mean, you and I are both high in learner and so we've really, like, went down that rabbit hole. Right? But as a writer, if you want really strong characters to understand how other people relate to the world, I think is always helpful. Right?

So just understanding instead of just being like, I don't understand that person. Why are they acting like that? Like, trying to get that I think it's a really you don't have to go too deep, I feel like, in CliftonStrengths to be like, oh, that's why that person did that. You know, it's not like a whole psychology degree.

Exactly. And I like like, strengths are really good for building character where if, you know, you want you want two characters who maybe have opposing personalities, you could make one competition and one woo. Right? And those aren't exactly opposites, but a lot of times they can have have personality traits that will make them more opposing. Enneagram can be really, really good for building characters.

And then, actually, the love languages, which a lot of people are like, it's not scientific. I don't want you to use it for science.

Yeah. I want you

to use it to build conflict and communication between people where if I want you to tell me that you love me by saying the words, but you wanna tell me you love me by giving me gifts, we're gonna have miscommunication, and that's another way to build conflict between characters.

That is a really good point though because the the greatest stories, right, is where the miscommunication because I get a little upset when people are like, the miscommunication trope is terrible, and it has been just like anything. It you know, people use it better and worse. Right. But when it's subtle like that, where you're like, your brain understands what's happening, but it's not just like, he I want him to give me gifts and he you know, like but you as the author know that that is I haven't heard of somebody using love languages, but it makes so much sense now that you say it. And, like, the more that you know as the author, the more that you can add those subtle hints.

Right? Exactly. And just make it deeper and, like, because the readers are so smart. Like, this is why I always tell people, like, you have to treat your reader like they're really smart because they are. And they are reading it way faster than you wrote it, and their brain is always looking for those

Especially romance readers. Always. Right?

They're like, what are they gonna do? How are they gonna break up? What's gonna happen? Because we know we know that they're gonna have to do something so that they finally get together at the end. So, like, what are they gonna it's just like mystery readers.

Like, who was it? Who did it? I wanna Right.

Where are the clues? Which ones are the red herrings?

Yeah. Yeah. And if you get to the end and you didn't get any clues, you're like, no. That's not okay. Yeah.

Oh, I love that. Okay. We're gonna put I'll put a link in the show notes to the love languages because I do think that that's kind of an older book, is it? I feel like when I was a teenager, that was was a

big deal.

Like, the mid nineties maybe? Yeah. Yeah. But it I mean, it's romance, love, like, obviously.

Exactly. And and it's communication. It's how people communicate.

Yeah.

Absolutely. Yeah. Enneagram has really good if you dive into their stuff a little bit deeper, they'll tell you, like, what what the baseline is for somebody with, you know, Enneagram number and wing number, whatever it is. But then you can see how they are at their best self from that number and then how they are at their worst self. And so and it includes things like fears and, how they communicate and things like that.

So you can you can use Enneagram also to say, okay. I wanna start these two people at these numbers at their worst self

Yeah.

And then let them grow to their best self. And Enneagram, like, tells you you need to take them from x to z.

Yes. And you

have it all right there. You just have to be able to, like, plot that into the book, how it's going to happen.

Yes. Like, it is okay, authors, to go and find this. Like, you don't have to make everything up yourself.

Oh, yeah. Absolutely. There's so many resources available.

Yes. Yes. We are definitely gonna have the link to your website in the show notes because you do have a lot of resources and

Thank you. I have a lot of, like, little shortish articles also that go into some of this stuff. Not not super deep, But

But you do the the last thing I wanted to talk to you about is you do have an article out, and I've been thinking about this a lot about the beginning of the book. And there's a lot out there, about you know, there are lots of competitions for, like, the first line or, like, the first chapter. And everyone says if you wanna be a traditionally published author or even, like, you know, indie authors take that into account and say, like, if you wanna hook the reader, you need a great, first chapter. And I think we have a hard time this is my theory and you can let me know what you think. We're, like, trying to figure out the characters and the world in the first six chapters.

And a lot of times, for some reason, we just think that the first chapter has you know, like, I wrote it. It's there. You know, we just keep it. But it's almost like it's it's almost like those first six chapters are a lot of repetition, a lot of digging, a lot of trying to figure it out, a lot of, you know and there are times that I pick up a book and I'm like, oh, no. The they didn't go back to the first six chapters and review from the point of view of, like, who is the character at the end?

Let me fix the beginning. Right? But and yet there's still a lot of information out there and but somehow we get I don't know. We get, like, hung up on this is what I wrote, therefore, this is where it's it is, you know, like so what do you how do you help people with that beginning of, like, we're so married to that beginning and yet sometimes it's really not where the story should start or it's just sort of tends to be like this author digging until it finally, like, starts out?

So I've definitely had authors that I've worked with where I have told them to delete the first one, three, seven chapters. Yes. And it turns into a conversation of you had to get to know the people in the story, but the readers don't need all that information. Right? They want an inciting incident, and that's that that's where we need to go.

And so when when stories come in like that, I'm I'm not one generally to rearrange things. I like, my brain just doesn't work that way. I can't take the puzzle pieces of your book and move them around. But I can say this chapter isn't moving the story forward, right? There's no momentum in it for whatever reason.

And authors, some of them, when I've worked with them have been able to realize, okay. I need to write this in order to get to know these people and figure out where I wanna go with the story and all of that. And they recognize that it's not wasted words even if they have to cut them because they couldn't have gotten to the end of the story without them first writing those first couple chapters.

Yes.

They had to write it to figure out who the characters were, where they wanted to go with it, what little, you know, Easter eggs they wanted to drop in, what mystery they wanted to build, whatever it was. So I always try to convince people that it's not wasted words. It's just not words that the reader needs.

Yes. And so Yes.

If you can't figure that out on your own, that's a great thing for critique partners or an editor or beta readers to help you with. But you also have to be sure that you're working with people who are willing to give you real feedback about it and not just be your best friend or your sister or your mom and say how much they love your book and it was perfect and you don't need to change anything.

This is true. This is so hard. Like, it is true that, like, I really am trying to to repeat over and over. It's not it's really not wasted words. And I don't know that's why I go back and forth on, like, how many words is your manuscript up to?

Like, it can be a great motivation, but it's not necessarily everything. Right? Like, we have to we have to, you know, whatever goals gets you through, but at the same time, even if you have to take it and, like, you don't even have to delete it. Just move it off the page. Move it out of the book.

That's just part of the process. Right? Like, we're writers. We gotta write it. Yeah.

And even if you're a plotter, sometimes you have to write it, and it doesn't quite get there. Yes. Yes. I think that that is usually those chapters where they're they're they feel like they're just sort of circling. That's the writer just trying to figure out, and then you go, okay.

Now here we are. And a lot of times you can just delete all of it.

And, like, save it for bonus content. Get people to sign up for your newsletter by sending them the four chapters that you had to cut that your editor thought weren't necessary.

Yes. And they might be like, I love this because now they know the characters. They get a little bit deeper. Yep. Nothing's wasted.

Right? We can always use them.

But don't get married

to your first chapter. It might not need to

be there. I mean, don't get married to the whole thing. Right? Yes. Because you you may have an intent with the story, but if it's not coming through for the reader, then you may have to go back and revise.

And that's okay. Right? This is this is just part of the process of writing a book. Exactly. Yeah.

Exactly. If you made chocolate chip cookies and you had too much baking soda in them, you need somebody to tell you, hey. These don't taste good. Maybe you should try it again.

Toss them. Right. There's no saving that when you when that happens. I've I almost said that the other day. I was like, oh, no.

This is baking soda, not baking powder. Bad choice. Alright. So what can, people I will we will have the the link to your website in the show notes. Can people join your membership, like, on a rolling basis?

Do you have, like, a certain times of year, that they can join on like, how how how does that work?

Yay. I'm back.

Yay. It's like right at the end, the last little questions. And it is like that's so funny. Alright. So where can, how can people join your membership?

Is it a rolling process, like, they can join whenever? Do you have specific times a year that you open it?

Nope. It's always open. It's called the HEA club. You can find the button on my website, and it is just a monthly subscription. So you can pop in for a month or two, make sure it's a good fit.

If it's not, you can leave. No hard feelings. If you do join, we are all romance authors. About 50% of the group is published. We have about 60 members right now.

So about 50% are still writing their first book. And most people are indie, though we do have a few trad authors in the group. I bring in a live presenter every month. So, like, this month, we have somebody to come in and talk about sex scenes. In March, we'll have somebody come in and talk about no.

In April, we'll have somebody come in and talk about marketing. In March, we'll have somebody come in and talk about cybersecurity for authors, so, like, how to keep yourself safe online, basically. And then we've got a great community. We have a Facebook, group that that's where most of the conversations happen. So that's a good place to, like, get feedback on your blurb or if you have a question about industry stuff, it's all right there.

Well, that's really cool that they're not not everyone is published. So even if you're starting, you can feel comfortable going and just learning it. That would be great. It would have been great in 2015 if I had found something like that.

Exactly. Right? I wanted to basically create what my local RWA chapter was after RWA kind of imploded in 2020. And so I launched the HEA club in 2021 and we've, I mean, I'm high learner, as we've talked about with CliftonStrengths. I like to learn things, and so being able to bring a presenter in and teach every month is my absolute favorite part of having the group.

And we have almost all of those presentations recorded from 2021 forward with over a 100.

So they can just binge the

Yes. Go over writing craft in business. Yeah.

That's amazing. Alright. Well, thank you, Jessica, so much for coming on and talking with us. It's always good to talk with somebody who is in the editing, you know, side of writing so that we can learn from you guys. So thank you so much.

Yeah. Thank you. I appreciate the invite. This has been a lot of fun. Thanks.