Ep 311 Craft&Connect #4: Where to Find Your Ideal Reader with guest Becky Grogan

Welcome to Pencils and Lipstick. This is a podcast for indie authors. I'm Cat Caldwell, novelist, short story writer, and book coach. Here on Pencils and Lipstick, we're obsessed with all things story, and it is my goal to bring you the writing tips that you need to make your novel come to life. Hey, everyone.

Welcome back to Pencils and Lipstick. This is episode 311. Now three eleven was one of my greatest, like, favorite bands ever. Everyone should check them out. This is Craft and Connect, and I am joined by with Becky Crogan.

Hi, Becky.

Hi. This is our hyperactivity podcast day.

It's not as if we haven't been talking for an hour already.

See, by the time we get this thing recorded, you guys, we are just kind of, we're revved up and ready to go.

We've fixed the world, and and now we're gonna tell you guys how to fix it.

That's right. That's right. So what are we starting with today?

Today is our second part to Ideal Reader. So this is our fourth Craft and Connect. If you guys have not joined us, you definitely should. Becky has been in marketing for several different things for most of her life.

Many, many years.

Many years.

I started at the age of five, and I have been going ever since.

I've been marketing that lemonade stand.

That's right. Yeah.

So as she is helping me grow and expand my knowledge of branding, I would say. I was gonna say expand my brand, but it's more knowledge so that I can actually expand it because Becky focuses now on, books and writers and how they they market themselves in their books. So you guys should go check out all the other craft and connect every third week of each month for 2026. We've gotten this is our fourth. We're we're in there.

We're gonna look at us go.

We're getting there. Well and just we have to throw out the celebration for Kat because her new book came out. Give us the thirty second synopsis and how you're feeling and what's going on.

Oh my goodness. It's like everything comes down at once. So Next Love is a contemporary romance, closed door, by the way, print

Slow burn build up, though.

Slow burn build up will make you feel a lot of things. So it is, a grief worn librarian who just escaped war is back in DC, and she doesn't know how to move on with her life until she meets a dentist who accuses her of snoring. And from then on, they keep running into each other. He is also trying to find his next steps, and, hopefully, they'll find them together.

Yes. They too. You've been getting good reviews. I've I've been hearing good reviews, and there's been stuff on social media about this book. And,

I'm very excited about it. I think this this goes into a little bit about what we're gonna talk about too, though. I think I have found my confidence, not, like, in my writing abilities because I've always known that I could write, but in just authorship. And I that's that's a big thing. And this is this is my seventh novel, so it's not That's

huge. That's huge, though. I mean, because that's the big that's the biggest part. You have to acknowledge that you are a writer, and you have to acknowledge that you are capable of publishing books and that your story is valuable and transformative. And there is a reader, multiple, multiple readers out there for your story.

It's it's very important, and I think it goes in in several steps as well. Like, many people know that I'm a writer. And then for the years, it was like if they didn't show interest, I was just like, well, okay. I just won't talk about it because they've never shown interest. And now I'm kinda like, yeah.

Well, here's my book. Yeah. If you don't, you know and I think some that to some people that comes naturally, that marketing idea that, like, I would I would put it in that same area. But I think to some people, it does not come naturally. And I would bet women struggle with it more than men.

What do you think about that?

Oh, you know, I think that's a 100% right.

I know what you were gonna say.

And I think, you know so the that whole mindset issue, what you're talking about is thinking that people don't care or that, you know, oh, I've you know, this is my seventh book, and it's like, no. That that's where we're gonna go back to understanding the things that fulfill you, the things that make up your brand as an author, the reason that you're doing it, and you tell them what you're doing Yeah. Proudly because it's a huge accomplishment. You know, if you never sold a copy of your book, Kat, but you've held it in your hand and you've seen it, it's there, that is huge. And you should never not make that as important as it is because and tell people.

If I could say, honestly, if I could say I've written seven books, I'd be like wearing those old, you know, things, sparklers on my head and just be so excited because that's a huge accomplishment.

I should get the the ego of the DCers.

I think that's perfect. Whenever I'm

in the tech department. Yeah. Well, I wrote $7.

Put on your tiara. You deserve to put on your tiara. So I got this for Kat because look. Doesn't that just perfectly match her ice princess thing? Look at that.

She's perfect.

That was my nickname in

high school. I don't Yeah.

They can't bring up trauma.

Those beautiful eyes. But, anyway, so that's that is such a huge accomplishment, and every writer out there needs to understand that you deserve to say and should proudly say that you have you're writing a story or you finished a story. You've published a novel or you haven't published a novel. If you've written it, that's yours. So you should be very, very proud of yourself for doing that.

So

That that comes into building I think it comes into building your brand. You can't have a brand if you're not willing to talk about it. Right? Like, your books and, we usually end with a mindset reset, but we were thinking about starting it today, a little bit because of, you know, what we've just been talking about. But what were the two things that we wanted to talk about especially because as we go through we do realize that as we talk about brand and marketing once a month on the podcast that it's not quite I wouldn't say that it's not enough, but it it's not an instant thing.

Right? It's not

like not an intensive. It it's really not an intensive. It's kind of high level. It's giving you a lot of information, and we always wanna provide value. But, you know, just as with each pillar, there's a lot more to learn about it.

Right. But the the premise is there that this is your foundation, your brand, understanding your core values, knowing who your ideal reader is and how to reach them. And then the third pillar, which we will get to at another time, is the content and the strategy for messaging your ideal reader. But the mindset is huge. And I as I talk more and more to writers and I talk more and more to coaches, that mindset is such a stumbling block.

So there's so many things that go through writers' minds, and it's not just writers. It's all of us because we are never as confident we're never as confident as we want to be. We never give ourselves enough credit, for whatever reason. But one of the things that I hear writers say, and Kat and I were talking about this, was, I'm not as interesting as other people. Why would, you know, why would people care about me as a writer?

So I said this in kind of, like, in a very flipped manner, but it's like, well, if you don't think you're interesting, why would a reader think you're interesting? Because it's not true. You are relatable. You are human. You have special things about you, and every one of us does.

And and that comparison part of it is just it's hard to get by. Mhmm. We all do it. But when you understand your core values and what's makes up your brand, there should be less and less of that because you're feeling confident about knowing who you are as a writer, a person, what themes run through your book, why you write what you write. And then the other people just kinda don't matter, but you are interesting.

And the thing that your ideal reader wants to do is relate to you. So, you know

And if you're writing a book, you're interested in it. Like You are very interested. People not interested in this world are people who just sit in the corner somewhere. And, actually, I would want to know why they're just

That's right. So why are they sitting in the corner? There you can go back to that. Why do they do what

they do? Yeah. I think this goes a little bit into, like, just I don't wanna say jealousy, but we but comparison and kind of women especially, because you and I are both women, talking to women of you know, when I was in college, I have this friend, Genoa. She's bubbly and she's beautiful, and she is, like, fills the room when she walks in. She's just one of those everyone wants to be around her.

I always wanted to be around her. And it gets to the point where you're like, you want to be her. Wouldn't my life be easier if I was like her? Right? And that's I think sometimes when we see social media or other people who are usually ahead of us on the marketing game, If only I could be like her.

And, really, what you and I were talking about before is, like, you gotta be you because that's who I want to be friends with. It's impossible that you don't have friends. Like, they like you for who you are, not because you're putting on an act every day.

And it's, you know, it's it's the realness of you that makes you relatable and makes people wanna connect with you because, you know, I don't care. And I I have a I have several friends just like the one you described. Beautiful, long legs, whatever, all these things, personality, smarts, whatever. But there's nobody on this planet that doesn't carry something that you don't see on the surface. We see and perceive what that person wants us to perceive.

And behind a lot of that bubbliness sometimes is a lot of pain, a lot of trauma, and a lot of hurt. We all carry it. Right? So that was something that I used to say to my mom. You know, we we we always had enough, but we didn't have an abundance of things that there was no waste in our family.

And we were very happy with that. It was fine. But then as I started getting into high school, I started seeing the kids that lived in a better neighborhood, the ones that had Izod and, you know, whatever brands were popular at the time. And I'd go to their house, and it was like Oh. I had one friend.

He had a they had a pink toilet in their powder room. And I was like Wow. And I told my mom,

like Is that a possibility? I'm like,

well, you know, they live on a golf course and blah blah blah blah blah blah. And she was like, stop. And my mother was, she was raised both her parents were were Hungarian immigrant, and they were very grounded. And she said, don't look at that. Don't think that their life is perfect.

You're only seeing it for just a brief period of time. You're not living in that house. You don't know if they scream all the time or, you know, they have issues of abuse or whatever. She's like, everybody's got something.

Yeah.

So don't think that there's a perfect family or a perfect person out there because we all carry stuff. So and those are the things that, you know, when you write whatever you write, what the themes are that are coming from inside you, that's relatable. That's unique. That's you. And that's interesting.

You know? It's interesting.

Yeah. I hope that people find that because I love beagles so much that that's interesting. Yeah. I wouldn't but people who love beagles do because we understand how goofy they are and whatever. That's kind of a stupid example, but you guys know that my brain kinda goes all all over.

Squirrel. Okay. So, anyway

He's chasing the squirrel. Wait. Yes. An eagle and a squirrel.

I have to stop looking out the window because all of a sudden, I'm like, what?

Okay. But this goes into our ideal reader because if you I think if you don't find yourself interesting, you're not gonna find your ideal reader interesting. So this does do a little this comes back a little bit to, like, working on ourselves. It's a little bit of a confidence game. And, you know, you and I both understand where that's coming from.

Like, this is I think women throughout their lives have several crises of, like, am I interested? Whether you're with babies, whether you're retiring, you feel a little bit pushed to the corner. Right? Like, that's and this is usually in the beginning of publishing books. Like, this is in you most likely a new territory.

So, like, you're overwhelmed. It's a lot of work. It's a lot of new, but you are still interesting. But I I think if you flip it a little bit and think, if I don't find myself interesting, how am I gonna find my ideal reader interesting? Because more likely than not, they're very much like you.

Yeah. Yeah.

Wanna read your stuff.

That and that that's probably why and and I know we're we're talking about finding your ideal year this week, but going back to that, you're understanding your core values and being comfortable with you. Mhmm. You know? Why do you do what you do? Why do you write what you write?

Why do you feel what you feel? Mhmm. And that comes from understanding the things that are really important to you, where you draw a line in the sand, what you will and will not do, what are your boundaries, what what makes you write the things that you write? Yeah. And that's that can be a little uncomfortable.

You know? Understanding and and, you know, if somebody's because I'm kinda I'm goofy. I I am goofy, and I'm creative and all of those different things. But, you know, I can probably create chaos, which is funny because I can't live within chaos. Right?

So I have to understand that I need that structure, and I need I need to know boundaries for myself. Otherwise, I am just like, yeah. I'll bring it back. Chasing squirrels all over the place, starting a 100 different things, not finishing anything, you know, because I'm not giving myself that framework that I need to live a little quieter. Yeah.

Because I need that. You know? Yep. If you've got all these ideas constantly running around in your head and you are thinking of a 100 ways you could do a 100 different things, you can't obviously do all of those at one time. So giving myself anytime.

Or anytime. But giving myself structure and giving myself things that I know I have to accomplish in a day or try to accomplish in a day. And, you know, I work from this time to this time. I know I'm not an evening person, so I'm not even gonna try to do a 100 things in the evening time.

Yeah. Yeah.

For me. Right. But everybody else does it and seems to do a brilliant job at it. And I'm like, well, I need to do that. No.

I don't. No.

This is like yeah. No. I Can't do it. Two weeks ago, I was talking about on the podcast just the this productivity in the writer space. It has a lot of times been hijacked by men.

Not hijacked, but the you know, they they had, like, the corner, the majority of the of the writing space. And there's a woman, I think I feel like her name is Courtney. But, anyway, I follow her on Instagram. This is terrible. I should know who she is.

She she had a reel where she said, let me tell you the secret about my productivity and, how it's gotten better over the years. My kids grew up. And I was like, that is the that is the truth for females in this world for any like, if you have kids or if you are taking or a caretaker in any way, that's that's that's the trick. Because let's face it. Most of us who are writing as women, we are we have another job.

Like, whether it's taking care of, you know, kids or adults in your life or what caretaker usually falls to us. If it's a full job outside as well on top of that, that's even more. You know? So, yes, if you keep listening to people without understanding your core values and who you are and you think that you have to do it like them because that's how they're doing their things, you're gonna you're gonna drive yourself insane. And I know that because I did it for years.

We all do it.

Yeah. We all do it. And I think there's no harder job than momming. You know, being a mom is so many different things, and I I stayed home with my son when he was smaller. And it was so rewarding, but it was so hard.

And I said, you know, I I'm coming from a background. I'm I'm doing corporate marketing. I've got all of these things going in it. There's a there's a bit of a glamour to it. You know?

You're the you're forward facing. You're doing blah blah blah blah blah. And I said, and now I'm at home with this little creature, and all he does is throw up and cry and other unmentionable things. And he you know, I'm I'm not showering. I'm not I'm just I'm, like, completely dedicated to this small little human that I I love unconditionally, but sometimes makes me want to just ball up in a corner and and cry.

And I I had no idea, but I also had so many expectations for myself. Like, oh, if I'm staying home, I've gotta make sure my house is spotless, and I can, you know, create dinner every day, and it's gonna be move you know, like, I'm some kind of Martha Stewart supermom. And then I was like, well, you know, I'll just I'll do something from I'll work from home because I was feeling like I was add one more thing to my place. I couldn't do it. I could not do it, and I I finally had to say because my friends would come and visit and they'd be like because we lived at the by the ocean and or by the coast, not by the ocean.

But, you know, they come to my house and there'd be flowers in the bedroom. The sheets would have been, no kidding, ironed with lavender. You know, there'd be magazines or be candy. I would tell the whole meal thing was prepped for the entire weekend. Everything.

And I had my friend a couple years into this. She brought in, her fiance, and she said, I told him that the sheets will be ironed and the blah blah blah. And then she said, you didn't do any of that. And I was like, nope. Martha left the building.

Sorry. I'm I'm assuming you're coming to see you know, and I'm, like, getting all defensive about them. I'm like, I'm assuming you're coming to see us and to visit. Does it matter if the sheets are ironed? I mean, it was like, no.

No. No. No.

Never mind. Wait. It's fine.

It's fine. But that was a hard place for me to get to because I felt less.

Yeah. Like, what's your excuse

for not being able to load this?

Imagine if you had been able to show everybody your perfect life social media. It does come to with the price with that personal price. Right? And when you're willing to step back and be like, who am I doing this for, and why am I doing this, and why am I driving myself insane? So on on top of that, anyone trying to make the perfect book, do the perfect marketing, everyone's doing it like this.

I have to constantly go check people's followerships and be like, yeah. They have, like, 80 times what I have. So, obviously, you know, like, reminding myself where people are, what they're doing, and not, like you said, like, not the comparison. You weren't Martha Stewart. Because guess what?

Martha Stewart had a team of

who knows how many people. Yeah. And I I was like, I don't wanna go to jail. I I don't wanna be cooking in the jail.

What? Insider trading? What?

That was Yeah.

But but the pressure certainly a certain age understands that joke right there.

Yeah. I know. Sorry. I'm old. But the the thing is when you get to and I'm taking it back to the core values again so we can shift this back.

When you realize what is important and what is not, that is a weight lifted off of your shoulder. Because you know what? I still am a good cook. I can still iron sheets if I want to. I choose not to.

My my time is better spent with my son and with my husband, with my dogs, with my friends. And you know what? They they really didn't care if there was dust on my floor. I cared about it, not them. And only because I thought they would think less of me.

So, you know, it's kinda like I I had somebody say, this is how bad I was. I had somebody say, if she died, don't let Becky go in her house until somebody comes in to clean it because I don't want Becky to see what my house looks like. And I'm like, oh my god. That's an that's awful. Because in other people's houses, I had no judgment.

I didn't care. I don't think cared about what they think about me.

Yeah. So She was not understanding. Yeah.

No. And it's like, I'm really not I don't care. I could care less. And and so that that really was like

Right. Right. Right. Right.

That's not who I wanna be. That's not who I am. But I felt those outside pressures to be this wonder woman, wonder person, wonderful in everything, you know, clothing, makeup, hair, clean house, the child's you know? I I got to the point with my kid. I was like, you know what?

Run around, Megan. I don't care. You're fine. You're healthy. I'm watching you.

You're having fun.

They do it in time.

If my mother was alive, she would be, like, horrified. But you know what? It doesn't what matters is that my kid knows he's loved and he's safe. And, you know, he he's got a he's got a foundation.

Yes.

But that's a law that is hard to to come to grips with. And that's why I said to somebody, I wish somebody would have told me about core values twenty five years ago. Yes. I probably would have been If

you guys are new to listening, you need to go to the first I I we'll just put the links in the show notes again because we did talk about core values in the in the first craft and connect. And there is a whole worksheet on how to find your core values, and it's it's it's really as you said, and people can listen to the to that episode, but it's really about what is important to you, not not necessarily, like, who you want your who you want people to see your brand as. That's not the point of

the No. It's you are your brand.

You I mean, as authors, we are

truly are. Yeah. What you truly are is who your brand is. And the things that matter to you and the stories that are important to you are the things that you're writing about, the things you know. Now your stories can be romantic y.

They can have world building. They can have all of these things, paranormal, magical stuff. I don't have any magic in my life necessarily, but I love to read about it. But there's still in all of those things, you come through. The things that are important to you, the themes, the transformations, the the things that happen to the people, to the characters in your book, they come from you.

And so understanding who you are, I think and, again, this is my opinion. There's a lot of ways to do this, but to me, this is how you really build that foundation is understanding why you do what you do. Who are you? Why are Why are you doing this? Why is it important, and why do you have to tell these stories?

Because you Yeah. You have a message. You have a voice that you are putting out there. Makes you vulnerable. But, you know, that vulnerability or that story you're telling, those characters you're creating are coming from you, and that's who your ideal reader wants to know.

Wants us to know. And I

You are interesting. You're very interesting.

Well, once you go through this whole list, you feel like you okay. I actually I think it is just it it is it's telling yourself that, like, kind of not letting your yourself say that lie and believe it. You know? Like and I think a lot of that comes from fear. Right?

Like, oh, I'm just not I don't wanna do the work to do this. But here's the thing that you and I have talked about and I talk about on the podcast a lot is, like, making these decisions on purpose. And when you have your core values, whatever happens in this kinda crazy world where people are allowed to have their vocal opinion about you or your books or your whatever is happening, like, out there in public. Like, that this is a new thing that is humans are not using properly. Right?

But the more that you do that I I do my things on purpose. This these are my core values of who I am, of what I see as important. If somebody bashes it or makes a snarky comment or something, it doesn't matter to me. Like, it really but if you're trying to be something for other people for in trying to fit into that place, then it's going to matter to you because you're going to feel like you didn't do it right. Whatever that is, it's so nebulous, right?

So when we're trying to like. Even if you're writing to market, like even if you're trying to sort of do that quick writing, getting out in front of people, make it, you know, sell quick. If you know who you are and you're writing from the authentic person, you're still gonna be happy with the book that you're putting out there. It's when you don't know who you are and you're writing kind of whatever you think other people might like.

You're mimicking you're mimicking somebody else that you see as being successful, and it probably doesn't fit you because it's not who you are.

It's that's not who you are. People are gonna see it because humans know that. Like, that's a gut reaction. Right? Like, we're like, oh, I don't know that.

Eventually, they'll get it. And you know what? That's that's gonna hurt because you're not gonna know what what you did wrong. I don't feel like I do anything wrong if somebody doesn't like my book. I didn't do anything wrong.

You just don't like my book. So there's there's that mindset shift, right, where you and this goes into ideal reader as much as people might not be thinking it does as they listen to us. But if you know who you are, then you can know who your ideal reader is. And when somebody unsubscribes from your list,

you won't

be here. Because you're still looking okay. We're not the right fit. They're not my ideal reader. I'm looking for this specific person.

Yes. And the message that I have from an ideal reader, it's not a message for you For 8,000,000,000 people. Or whatever your name is. But and it's not personal. That's the other thing is we tend to take everything so very personally.

And there's a lot of popular writers that I don't read because I don't like the way they write, and that's okay. I would love to sit down and talk with them. I'm sure they're lovely people. Yes. Yes.

You know? Yes. I just I'm just not interested in the topic or the whatever it is, and that's okay because I don't have time to read everybody's books. Yeah. Exactly.

You can only read so many books.

I can only read so many.

Yes. And that's just the thing, and and they would be silly to be running after you as an ideal reader if you're just like, it's just not my thing. Like, we were talking before, like, Nora Roberts versus Danielle Steele, and you're more of a Nora Roberts fan. It would be crazy for Danielle Steele to care so much that she puts tons of energy into thinking Becky needs to read her book and like her book. It's like, I don't have anything against you personally.

I just prefer Nora Roberts. Like, you know, and whatever. It's not personal.

There are enough there are enough readers to go around. That's the thing. Oh, yeah. Don't don't be afraid that there's not enough people to read your book because there are

There are.

Are enough people

to read everyone's book. It's like music. We all can listen to lots of different things. So should we I mean, we can put the worksheet in the show notes, but last week, we did start the conversation about ideal readers, like, what they are, you know, how how to define them, I guess. And so we don't really wanna go into that too much.

So we're go we're starting this episode now that we've gone through that wonderful mindset reset, which I have a hard time saying.

So I know.

I don't know why we named it that. Like like, what? I wanted to do marketing mindset. That's a little bit easier. Reminds that reset.

Okay. Whatever y'all wanna call it is fine. Just It makes us concentrate. Yes. Just know that you are interesting and you are worth connecting with and your stories will do that Yeah.

With the right ideal reader. So last time, we talked about identifying that person, that reader that is there for the type of work that you're putting out and being very specific about that. And so then once you do that, people are like, well, where am I supposed to find them?

Valley question.

That's what we're gonna talk about today. And there will be an exercise where I'm reading this over here. Where to find your ideal readers. That will be in the show notes, and it's also I have a free resource page now on my website at, beckythebookcoach.com. You can go and all of the podcasts are there.

There's some additional podcasts. There's also you. Yeah. There's there's a bunch of free resources. Download them and use them.

So you were doing stuff on your website. I didn't realize you were doing that much.

Very slowly. Hey. And with a really big learning curve.

I know. It's horrible.

Have to understand me. I I have been doing marketing for a long, long time, and there's a lot of things that I'm good at when it comes to marketing. But there's a big difference between corporate marketing and being an entrepreneur and doing marketing. And doing it with

one person.

Because I cannot pick up the phone and

go, I need delegate.

I need a new landing page. Because IT is like the beagle laying on the bed who's not even back there today. He's like, what? He's like, what? Yeah.

So there's nobody. It's just like me and Veronica, my other personality, and I keep looking over her and she's got no answers.

She's also not doing anything.

She's not doing anything either. So, you know, we all have things we're good at. We all have things that are strengths. We have things that are weaknesses. I get very stubborn, and I want to learn how to do something.

I don't necessarily like to ask. Mhmm. But I have learned to ask, and Kat's like, yes, Becky. That is a thing. Okay, Kat.

I'll I'll I'll get somebody to

help you. You have to ask them because she asked me something this week, and I said, I have no idea. You have to ask that other person.

Kat got it. Okay. She's like So there's just there's but the thing that I like is that I will continue to be curious. I will continue to try to learn new things Yes. Because it's important to me.

And that's just that's is what it is. So, anyway, now I have this page on my website, and I continue to add things to it. It'll probably, like, blow up three or four, maybe five times. And

We will all be patient. It's fine. We are gonna benefit from your stubbornness and determination.

There and be like, that page is broken. Hey, Becky. Oh, okay. Thank you.

I went on my page the other day and was like, oh, that link doesn't work. So, yes, we are all here. So when we say that

all in this we're all in this one space where where we're learning and we're figuring things out. You know? It's what we do as humans.

So we never expect all exactly. And we never expect all of you listeners to get all of your stuff done today, obviously. We're again, we're trying to we are giving you a lot of information. And as you can hear, we're we're still working on ours. So

The one thing I was talking to someone today, actually, might have been you, Kat. I don't know.

You've had a full day, though.

It's been a day. The one I've been saying that, you know, there is so much information associated with marketing. So much. And it's very easy to and I I do it. I'm I'm I do this all the time.

I talk and talk and talk and talk and talk, and I'm, like, giving you all this information. And I'm sure people are shutting down going, oh my gosh. How am I supposed to take all this in? So just understand that you just make it into little bite sized pieces. Right.

You you look at these exercises. You listen to the podcast. You ask questions. You can always email. You know, there's a lot of resources out there, and Kat and I are really dedicated to wanting to give you things that you can go to and use and reuse and that these are resources that are vetted.

You know, there's a lot of programs and things out there. We're this is a work in progress for us, but we do feel very strongly that, you know, when you're sitting there at your desk and you're like, I don't know how to do x y z. Yeah. I wonder if Kat or Becky have something that will give me a little bit of some information about that topic. We won't be able to cover all of them, but we can we're always open to suggestions.

We know a lot of people. We know a lot of coaches. We do. We we know a lot of writers.

We can find you guys somebody.

We can find you stuff, but, you know and that's part of the collaboration Mhmm. And working with each other. Nobody wants it to be harder than it already is.

No kidding. Try do not writers, do not try to do this all by yourself. It it is it is

And, you know, just having I when I know I was talking to Kat about this. That's that having people that understand what you do, other writers, coaches, friends that actually get what you do because I have a lot of people that are like, I don't know what you do. It's like, alright. Whatever. But people that can support and collaborate with you.

Yeah. It's very important to not isolate yourself and not think that what you are trying to do isn't valuable. Ask for help. You know? Because people are always willing.

Yeah. For the most part, they are very willing to help you.

Exactly. Yeah.

You have to Get get yourself a couple of people that are accountability buddies, partners, somebody just to vent to. And and one of my very best friends, she's like, I don't want you to talk. I just want to say this.

Like, I just want you to hear me out.

Okay. Because, you know, I go into coaching mode, which I try not to do with my friends. It happens anyway because I've always been this kind of person. But, she's like and I'll go and she's like, no. Okay.

I don't want you to fix it. I just want

I don't want you to fix it. I just want you to let me vent. And she does it loudly and proudly. Then then she can think about it. She has to clear out her mind.

So I encourage anybody that's writing, just have somebody there. And, you know, you can create a group. You can put it out there and say, hey. I wrote I write romantic. Anybody else writing romantic, doing their first, second, third, fourth book that wants an accountability partner or wants, you know, an ear.

Mhmm. So, you know, you're not by yourself. Yeah. Did that? That just veered off topic.

But, anyway, I think that that is very important because we all need people.

We do. Well and that's actually where you're gonna find some of your ideal readers too, though, isn't it? When you find somebody who is writing in your genre and sort of at the same spot even writing. And I know, like, I say that hesitating because on one hand, when you're looking for your ideal reader, there's a couple different things that we where we can go. Like, we we have to go collaborate with other authors, and they have to be authors who are a little bit higher, like, be further along than us, obviously.

You know, like, they have a list that's a little bit bigger. And I think sometimes authors are shy about approaching them or, you know, what what's great is that we have book funnel. We have this new one that I just found, book clicker. We have story origin. And so you can find other list to collaborate with.

That's a collaboration. But at the same time, don't be shy. Like, don't be shy to ask to collaborate with people, but also don't be shy to to make your own group wherever that is, wherever you hang out and to ask and see if you guys if you have, you know, four writers that write cozy mystery, mystical romance, and you all have 50 people on your list. I know I just made up a new genre.

I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know.

I kinda wanna read that. And there are 50 different people. You have 250 people, you know, that that you can collaborate with, and that's where we all start. Literally, I started with 10 on my list.

That is how you expand your reach. That's how you expand your reach.

I literally know.

Do it for each other. Mhmm. And it it will work, and it will keep you from being so alone on your writing island. And I think if I've I've I've said this before, but I think the culture of indie authors and and traditional published authors has changed some in the last few years. I I know I had an experience with a writer a few few years back that did not want to share anything about how they did their books, how they got through because they were afraid that somebody was gonna steal their readers or somebody was gonna steal an idea.

That's very unusual.

Or I think so too, and I was a little bit surprised. But it's not like that.

No. It's really not. That's that's kind of a

That that's kinda like a

A very

strange thing for this specific author. Yeah. But for the most part and and, actually, I think that that has changed for that person in the last few years too.

Yeah.

I think there's been because the the culture is, let's help. Let's collaborate. Let's work together because, again, we all don't have the same ideal reader.

Yeah. Absolutely.

You know? And and you obviously, as romance readers, as readers in general, I read a lot of different stuff. So I will read every subgenre except the mafia stuff. I'm not really great with that. That probably is a family thing.

I have got some answers. Family.

Wait. This is my uncle Pat. What?

Like, oh, no. That's his uncle. Whatever his name was. But yeah. So I like to know a little bit about what's going on in other subgenres because I if I'm reading rom coms, I can only read so many before I'm like, oh, I need to switch to something else.

Mhmm. So you don't have to just pair up with somebody that's exactly doing the same thing that you're doing, but similarities are great. Because if you're swapping newsletters, then, you know again, because we talk about you want you want good ideal readers, not general readers. Mhmm.

Because

you're just throwing that spaghetti out there, and it's not sticking to anything. Right. There

are some things that you wanna look out for. Right? Like, if you're a sci fi writer, you're probably not going to swap with contemporary romance.

Right.

It's just And No. Yeah. It's really not

gonna work for you. And we had we you know, everybody's going through this process of trying to learn how to do their marketing, what's gonna work for them, what is comfortable, what is not. And, again, it goes back to you. You do not need to do everything, and you need to be strategic when you have an opportunity. And one of, a coach coach slash writer that we know wanted to do she did a lot of work on a newsletter or some type of lead magnet to be shared with another writer coach who was in a totally different genre and had a ton of followers.

Mhmm. But not one of those people was gonna follow this coach writer because it had nothing to do with what she writes.

Yeah. That is yeah. That that is whether you're a writer or coach, that that ideal audience. I think that we can get caught up in the American celebrityism idea. Right?

We see the the followers. I really then and I follow people that I know, and I have to remind myself I can't copy like, copy. I can't, like, sort of imitate or get inspiration from their stuff because we have different ideal readers. It has nothing to do with you know, I still like following them. I still like reading their stuff.

But, yes, if I if I try to get Stephen King to share my books, it's gonna be worthless.

You know? Like Yeah. Because no.

That would be His readers would be like, where is the liver eating madness person in these books? Like, no. You know, that's The liver eating madness.

That's just crazy. I before. We have to we have to switch. I just have to tell y'all something really funny because I'm watching Kat play with her earrings. And if you're just listening, you can't see, but she is she's always we're she and I are both twitchy.

We're flipping the hair. We're twisting the rings. We're doing something

You really should see us on c

t four. Before we started taping, she's really, like, fussing with her ear, and then she goes, oh, she had two earrings in one ear. So I was like, yes. Clinking a lot on this side of my head. See?

That's that's as moms, we run around doing a 100 different things and all of the things. So that was pretty funny because I think I tend to think I'm the only one that does stuff like that. Yeah. I have gotten my ring caught on a doorknob before and, like, jerked myself back into the room. How I did that, I don't know.

But, you know, so stuff like that to me

is Ripping your yes. I know. Like, the different door handles in the houses, they must have been created by men because I don't know the amount of times I get my, like when I'm wearing the oversize and, like

Yep.

Backwards. You know? Whatever. I blame them for everything. Yeah.

And see, one one of the reasons why I would be Kat's ideal reader and why I like being around her is she's she was talking about leaving the the doors open, the cabinet doors open and hitting them in with your head. And I did that in my laundry room one year, and I knocked myself onto the floor. And I wasn't knocked out, but I hit it so hard. I saw stars, and I went down. And my husband and my son are like

Did you not see the door you just left?

I've done it so many times. I'm like and, of course, I'm gonna dramatize it. I'm like, oh my god. I hit my head so hard. And they're like, get up.

They're not nice.

Oh, I've had many times. I'm like, what's that bruise from? Oh, yeah. It must have been from when I hit my head.

Yeah. All the time. But, anyway Alright.

So we are each other's ideal readers. So where can we find our ideal readers? Again, we want to do some collaboration with authors

Mhmm.

Who are in collaborate. Yep. In the same sort of vicinity. In in romance, this would include, like, contemporary romance, but possibly looking into the niche of whether it's spicy versus not spicy. And that is really a personal decision on what kind of list you're gonna build that's personal.

But, you know, that, again, might go into sort of the same thing of, like, sci fi versus fantasy. That's you know, you might mix it. You might not. You might stay far away from it. You're probably not gonna go sci fi cozy mystery.

Like, that's not gonna that's not gonna work out well.

I I can't even imagine what that would be.

I don't really. It was like, what? I have heard about sci fi mysteries, and so that

even Our friend, Angie, who writes cozy romance could probably do a sci fi cozy mystery. I bet she could write it. I She does really good stuff.

Cozy with fantasy, paranormal. Yeah.

When you're looking for your ideal reader, there's some obvious places that you could go, and these are all in the, in the exercise sheet that's gonna be in the show notes. So, of course, you can look at Good Read Good Reads groups. You can go on Amazon, also read. So if you go to find a book like Kat's and you loved her book, then you go, oh, also reads you know, so you can find out where these people are. Book fairs and festivals, where are they

going to book? Actually the best. Mhmm. And that is, like, getting out of your we should all do something that scares us every once in a while. Right?

Out of that comfort zone.

Get out of that comfort zone. And it's it's not easy. There are times, like, a few weeks ago that it just, like, it was a complete flop for me. I did I met some really great people. Book wise, didn't find my ideal reader there, but you never know.

And that it's also good to figure out where your ideal reader is not.

I mean, it's nothing Well, yeah. So you can also the book fairs are really great. I think that's you can really see who who's reading what and who's buying what. I'm a big proponent of supporting indie bookstores, and they are coming back, and getting stronger that I'm seeing more and more that are opening. But if they have a newsletter

Yeah.

This means you do have to introduce yourself to the owner or the manager or someone, and say, I'm Kat Caldwell, and these are the books that I write. Do you have a newsletter that you might be able to let me put in a little blurb about my books?

Yep. It is it is interacting with people. And sometimes and the more you do it I will say this again if you haven't ever heard me say it. The more you do something, the less scary it is. I clicked something and you went away.

Alright. So k. A couple years ago, writing an email because I will say with indie bookstores, a lot of them have forms to fill out because they don't want you coming in. But you can be involved in their store. You can go to events.

You can talk to them and buy books from them and be part of it, which is gonna be benefit you. But sometimes, you know, you kind of wanna just there's, like, a romance only bookstore, you know, fifty minutes away, and you think, okay. Well, I'm gonna fill out the form. It used to really, like, oh my goodness. You know, filling out that form and then getting the response back.

And I would say it's fifty fifty whether they will take your book on or not take your book on. But the more you do it, the the less personal it feels. They all have to choose their inventory. And so you just you and the better you get at it. So even at the in in person book fair I went to, that was not great for me for an ideal my ideal reader was not there.

I went into an indie bookstore, chatted with them, played UNO. They had a good time. They, you know, told them that I was a writer, which five years ago, I never would have. You know? And this is all the more that you do it, and now they have my books in their store.

So they're they're you have to do it. Remember when you had to apply for your first job as a 14 year old and how scary it was to talk to those adults? It's like the same thing. You know? You are putting yourself out there, and they might say no.

And they have done research. You're not gonna open up an indie bookstore without knowing

Hopefully not.

What is popular. Well, hopefully not. You know, what genre is selling? What you know? And as they own the store for longer and longer, these are things that they know.

So, you know, walking in there and going, I write cozy mystery. What do you sell the most of? Oh, cozy mystery. Right. Is there an opportunity for me to read some of your readers, to talk about my book?

Yeah. A lot of them wanna know if you, wanna do an event there. But here's the here's one point that you have to understand. It's it's kinda like when you were applying for that, podcast. What do you want to do as the the event?

That is the question that they will ask, which in the beginning was surprising to me. I was like, well, I don't know whatever you wanna do. No. You need to come up with what you think would be a great event. What are you and you're gonna have to then follow through on that.

Right? So whether you wanna do a workshop, whether you want to come in, bring in other writers, that is a great way to do it. I've actually done that with another writer here. Little less scary. Right?

People can come in and ask the local romance writers. If you wanna do a signing, be aware that you have to bring you have to do your marketing for that too. Like, bring it in. So getting in there, talking to them, being part of the store, being visible, and knowing that they might say no because maybe they don't stock Cozy Mystery.

And But you need to know that. You need to know that. And that and I and when we're talking about this, these are things that if you are someone who does not like social media, if you don't wanna be on TikTok and you don't wanna be on Facebook, you know, getting to know the people in your community that you can be face to face with. And I'm not saying you have to be best friends with them. I'm not saying, you know, you're doing something with them every week, but people are more likely to go to what they know.

So if I own a bookstore or I'm a librarian, and I know that Kat is doing this, this, and this, and I know that that she's nice and she's approachable, and she, you know, looks at things with an open mind, who am I gonna call? Am I gonna call Kat, or I'm gonna call somebody that, you know, I have no idea what what they're about? And will I look at this? Because Kat is then a resource. Right?

So am I gonna look at this resource and go, oh, I know Kat can do this, and she can do this, and she can do this. So if I need to put out an event or I need to do something for the friends of the library, whatever it is, Kat can fill a couple different slots. So most likely, I'm gonna have her do a couple of different things, and that's just more exposure and visibility for that particular author.

Yeah. Do not in the in the day and age of social media, do not neglect your local community to find those those readers. Because I mean, somebody was just saying the other day of, like, how the average American reads 10 books a year. And, really, it's a little bit inflated because some people read, like, a 100. Yeah.

So they're thinking, like, most people read five. Well, the majority of the people who read a lot go to the library.

Yes. Because you can't afford to buy all these books that you want to read. And, yes, I I read a lot on my Kindle, but I've noticed within the last two years, I want to hold the book.

Mhmm.

I want I want that feeling again. I want to be able to hold it in my hand. There's some kinda connection there. And I resisted for a long time having a Kindle. Like, really resisted for many years.

But I had so many books in my house, and I had this the lady at the used bookstore was, like, my best friend.

She's like

I'd come in there with, like, you know, 50 books, and she'd go, well, you have $35 credit. I'm like, oh my god. You know? I'm like Let

me add more.

Yeah. So, that's building that rapport, and this is what you want your ideal readers to do with you. So if you are comfortable with that, start building some rapport and connection with people.

At least start somewhere. Right? Start at your local library because here's the thing too. Like, you you do an event with them or you do something with them or, like, is there, it took me three years to get into a local author event through the library because it just anyway, I won't I won't bad mouth that person. It took a long time to get into, like, remember my name.

You know? But I was very persistent with it because I think it would be a great way to be local. Right? So get in there, see if they have events, see what you can do, maybe volunteer, because, a, if they want to carry your book, you actually get paid for that. Like, we can't but, I mean, on one hand, we can't think ideal reader will always bring in all the money.

It's okay that you find ideal readers at the library because guess who will probably talk about the book that they just read is the person who reads a lot, who will then go to their friend and say, I found this book. I loved it. Maybe they live in another state, and they either buy it or they get their library to carry it. Do not neglect those little steps in finding your ideal readers. It's also a great place to, you know, again, find who your ideal reader is not.

Or Well, yeah,

and find where there's local book you know, who's who's in book clubs, who's doing book clubs, and can you

How are you gonna find them other way?

Clubs. Yes. Book clubs and remember, you never pay to go to a book club.

Please don't answer those emails.

Ever pay to go to a book club. Ever. Most of the time, they are begging for an author to come because it's it's kind of out of the ordinary.

It will be either free or they will pay you by buying your books.

You're not

paid to appear. That is a scam.

But book clubs are a beautiful thing because I'm I have known women that have been involved with, like, six, seven book clubs at one time. Yes. And there's bigger book clubs. There's some that do just only these type of books, this genre, blah blah blah. But once you have done, you know, an appearance or whatever it is.

I have a friend that she she probably does book club appearances, golly, at least one a month. And so and they love it. They have fun. There's maybe 20 people there, 15 people. So it's not that intimidating if you are talking about your work or whatever.

And it's just a really good thing to do because they'll recommend you. Yes. They will. Recommend you. And you don't necessarily have to be in person.

You can be on Zoom because a lot of

everyone knows how to do Zoom. I mean and, really, unless you are somebody who moves every year, if you've been in, you have no excuse to to not find those. So, yes, you can find ideal readers online. But I think a lot of times we we focus so much online and they become very faceless. I think when you can have the faces to the people, they become so much more real, which goes back a little bit to that problem of, like, I'm not interested.

You will find how how interesting you are when you are actually either Zoom face to face or face to face with people, just talking. And even even at the the book fairs that don't aren't the biggest deal, if you just talk to people, you will you will become that person that they remember. Oh, my friend, you know, wanted to read this book. I remember this one author that I was talking to. You never know.

So please do not neglect finding them in your neighborhood, literally.

So then if we go back to social media for a second Okay.

Because they are gonna wanna know about social media.

How do you find people on social media? How do you know where your ideal reader's hanging out? And, again, this is some research that has to be done, But, you know, I we've talked about looking at someone who's successful in your genre and looking at their social media if they have a group joining their group, and then just listen. Yep. You don't have to participate.

Just listen to what people are talking about and what they're saying and what they're looking for. And one thing that I found that I just I love this thing is I'm in several different groups. And when somebody says, what are you reading? I need a recommendation. And then all of a sudden, all these books just start popping up.

And it's like, as a matter of fact, there was something on Instagram the other day about, closed door romances and had a list of new closed door romances and Cass was on there. And I said, I would read this one. Because I know her. Because I know. Anyway, there's there are just there are just things out there that you don't have to necessarily you know, I'm gonna do everything in this group, but just listen.

Yeah. Well see what people are doing.

And this goes back to what you say of don't start marketing when your book first just comes out. This is why you start beforehand.

Start right.

We're gonna do it right. If anyone like and it's not like we can't, you know, start now. Obviously, you're gonna wanna start now. But it it is best to do it with some time. Right?

Because you can I have joined maybe a 100 Facebook groups, and then slowly but surely, you leave the ones that are not the right place for you? You have to have that time, knowing where they are, where they're not, you know, learning as you go. So if you give yourself that time, you're not gonna be feeling overwhelmed.

And so and this doesn't just apply to writers. This applies in marketing in general. You can have a great product. Like, I could put together a program and be like, oh, this is so good. And I've had Kat look at it, and other different coaches have looked at it and gone, this is great.

And I go, perfect. I'm launching it tomorrow. Mhmm. What kind of response do you think? It's gonna be crickets.

Mhmm. Because, again, there's been no expectation. There's been no buildup. There's been nobody knows I'm doing this. Then it could be the best program in the world, and it's not gonna succeed because you have to have some lead time.

You have to create some audience. You have to create let people know what you're answering. What is the thing that they need, and how are you answering that need? And that's the same thing that your ideal reader. I want to read an author that does this, this, and this.

If you're that author, you have to tell that ideal reader, hey. I'm your writer over here.

Yep. Mine is coming out soon. I there there is that little bit of a balance in intimidation factor, I think, when it's not finished finished, but you kinda have to just get over that. I mean, I wouldn't there's nothing wrong with saying I sat down to write the very first line of my book. I'm gonna write a book.

There's nothing wrong with that at all. But if you're you're probably not gonna you're learning a lot at the same time. I'm not sure. You better know, you know, what is happening. But once you've already gotten the first draft, once you really are in it, you are going to write this book.

You are gonna be an author. This is what you're what you're doing. You have to start figuring this stuff out that we're talking about. That would be your ideal situation, that you provider, I'm in this book. This is what I'm writing about.

This is who I am. I have my core. This is the ideal reader. I'm like, I want my book to and, again, like, this is not what I did. But if I could go back, I would do it like that.

Exactly.

Well and I think and, again, we're talking about that journey of Yeah. I'm writing a book, and it's about second chances. And, you know, I'm halfway through the book, and I'm writing so many hours a day, and I'm finding that there's something missing. And I don't know what that is, and my character's not taking the reader, if if I'm a reader that wants closed door, slow burn, and I see Kat talking about writing this book that's hitting all of my buttons, I'm gonna listen to what she has to say. And as she's going through and writing this book and hitting barriers or doing something great or having that day, what's my cupcake on the couch day where I she just can't she can't handle it anymore.

Right? Needs a break. I'm following her, and I'm getting more and more invested in what she's doing and what this book is gonna be when she puts it out, when it's actually out there and can come into my hands.

And then your ideal reader's already there, and they're waiting for it. So do don't don't leave it to the last minute for sure. Like and and know they come out.

And don't be afraid to engage with people who are your ideal reader. When you find them, when you find where they hang out, and we kinda we keep getting off this topic. But, one of the things you know, there's all kinds of thing. There's Bookstagram. There's, Reddit genre communities.

There's, BookTube.

Reddit is actually a pretty good place to go.

Pinterest as well.

Pinterest as well. And, again, this this goes into having that time to do it and finding them and and being able to narrow down who your people are. So, yeah, you have everything online is is fair game. Right? But if you if you can just figure out if that's where your people are, they might not be where you think they are.

You might have to try a few different places.

Yeah. And you have to do you you have to without like, you can go down the rabbit hole on this, and you can spend hours and hours and hours and hours going to different places and looking at different forms and groups and all of that. So you have to have a little bit of discipline with that and really kinda think about where where do I think would be the first five places that they would hang out. You know? And if you have a theme in your story, if you're writing a romance that has a hobby in it, it's got reference to cooking.

It's got music in it. It's got knitting. It has firemen. I don't know. You look at that and go, okay.

That's a hobby. Well, firemen are a hobby. Well, we won't get onto that. Yeah. That's like, oh, firemen.

But you you all understand what I'm saying. If you can narrow down that, then you can start going to groups of people who do this. So cooking groups, you know, knitting, painting. I don't know. Book clubs, we've already talked about.

Go to these spaces where these people are. Yeah. You know? And and because, you know, if I love knitting and you've got you know, you're writing a rom com about an owner of a knitting store and the rude guy across the street who hates yarn.

I think somebody did that.

Maybe that's where I'm pulling that from. I don't know.

Is it Penny somebody? I mean, a lot of writers actually have a lot of fun with this sort of thing,

like Yes.

Adding it together. So there there's a couple different things that where you can find your ideal reader, whether you're starting out or whether you've kind of already started and now you're working backwards. But like you said, there's so many places to go. I would, yeah, I would start between three and five. If you're really starting from zero, three to five, and my top would be finding other authors to collaborate with and ask questions from.

Like, that would that would help you not go down the rabbit

hole, like, for sure. I learn something new from Kat every time we talk. She has so much knowledge about the publishing industry, you know, formatting your books, what works on Amazon, what doesn't work, what happens on BookTok, what's going I mean, it's like I am just like, how did she learn all that stuff? Because she knows a lot, and it's very impressive. You know?

It's like but it's years and years of going through this and figuring out what works for her and all this knowledge that she's gained. And I will tell you this. If you asked Kat a question, she wouldn't be like, oh, I'm not gonna tell you. Go find out yourself. She's gonna be like, let me tell you.

This is what I'm

brutally honest. Don't bother with substance.

Bother with that thing because it doesn't work.

It doesn't work.

People like to mentor. People like to help. And, certainly, if if I ask Kat a question and she gives me the answer that I need, it always ends up being more than that. It always ends up being some type of cross information that happens, and we talk about experiences that we've had or something. And there's more to it than just going, Kat, can you tell me how to do blah blah blah?

And she's like, oh god, Becky. Again, didn't I tell you that five times already? But we have enjoyable conversations, and that's what you'll end up having. Ask people and talk to them. And you will probably be surprised that you well, you shouldn't be, but you will, that you have knowledge that they don't have.

Yeah. And that's where it all

just starts

to get build you you're building and it's getting bigger and bigger, And you are all helping one another, and there's just there's a ton of knowledge out there and and share what you have, and people will share back with you. Yes. That's part

of that. You you try things. You you meet people. I know a lot of people that we've tried stuff together. It doesn't work.

There's no hard feelings. It's fine. You keep going. You try something else. You have to put yourself out there.

I would do number one as finding other authors and collaborating with them, watching them, following with them, being part of their art group, seeing like, you will learn by being part of it, then going locally, and then, we're always on the Internet. So pay attention a little bit. Don't just be scrolling. Pay attention to what people are doing, what people are talking about, what books people are talking about. Don't be afraid to try.

But, also, have the guts to drop something that's not working. Like, don't chase after something that's not working over and over and over again or something that just doesn't vibe with you. I can't figure out Pinterest to save my life other than to save recipes, and so I just don't do it. Like and don't be don't be sidetracked by people who are like, you have to do this. If you find time to figure it out properly, okay.

But you have to be able you know, we just put I have a whole list here, like, of 10 places that you could go. You have to only go where you can figure it out, where you feel good. Do not think that you have to do it all and drop the one set.

And one thing of that I will say from our coaching experience is, being a new coach and starting my own business and learning all of these different things. That group of coaches that can give you support or that group of writers makes it so much more fun. I can be very upset about something that I'm having trouble with or an experience or something has flopped. It hasn't worked, and I can reach out. And, again, like my friend that likes to vent on the phone, there's people there who understand my frustration and who will listen to me and who can help me or not help me depending on what the situation is.

But I know that they're there, and then we have fun. Yeah. And then we do things like, oh, well, you know what? Why don't we get on a call, and we'll all learn how to to do Pinterest together.

Yeah. And you're not alone. Yeah.

And you're not alone. And it just it's it's huge. It makes all the difference in the world because when you feel like you're isolated, it's really hard to get things done sometimes because you just keep hitting that wall again and again and again. And, unfortunately, as humans, we're like, I've done everything I can, but you're doing the same thing over and over again. Because I think you're gonna a different result, which, you know, is the definition of insanity.

So, you know, it it is like, who do I know?

That's what that's

Or who can I call and go, this is what I need? Do you know anybody? Oh, yeah. I got you.

That is why number one, I would put collaboration with other other artists.

Because the thing is, as Kat said before, in this challenging world that we're in, we need each other.

Yeah.

We've always needed each other. But but sometimes this Internet and all of these social media things just completely separate us, and we start looking at what we think is real and it's not.

Yeah. Yeah. We're just chasing that.

Yeah. We're chasing something that is not there. And so having people that you can lift up that can lift you up, that you can talk to, I'm not saying that they will solve all your problems because that's not gonna happen. You gotta do this. You're writing your own book, but there is support.

And and having that network of support is huge. It's huge. And I just can't I can't even stress enough why we all need that.

Yeah. Absolutely.

Because we think we're fine, and we think that we're doing everything that we can. But then once we start getting back around people again and we start talking with people and we're being honest with people, we realize that this is much better Yes. Than trying to do everything on my own and, you know, never wanting to admit that I need help.

Yeah. Oh my gosh. No.

It doesn't work. No. Exactly. Exactly. So we have all these different places, on this exercise sheet that's in the show notes and then will be on my website as well, for y'all to do.

And then what else are we covering today? I know we haven't really done

We already did our mindset reset, and we have to tell everyone that the live is going to be June 12 at 3PM eastern. We are trying a different time just and day, see if you guys like that better. And we are gonna have you sign up through the TidyCal link because that we just haven't figured out a better way to

do it.

That's just it is what it is. I will say if you are if you unsubscribe from my newsletter, you won't get like, you will get the reminders from TidyCal. They will send you the reminders, but you won't get the extra reminders that I give, which is fine. But just know that, you know, don't complain. That's what I'm gonna say.

You will get the TidyCal Zooming reminders, but you won't get the extra extra reminders from me. Again, totally fine.

But we, you know, we we we did this before, and it was fun. And we learned a lot, and we had some good questions. Yeah. You know, we'll talk about anything. Bring a friend.

Let's fill this Zoom room up. I mean, it would be so much fun. If you've got a writer friend, hey. This is how you can start your collaboration with other writers.

Yeah. It is. Oh, we can actually we could add that maybe. We will have the the form up for, questions as well. Once you sign up, you'll you'll get a link to that form, that you can send in your questions early if you want.

But the the point of the live is to be talking about the things that we've talked about. So, really, like, do your do the exercises for the ideal reader as much as you can. And then if you you know, so that you can have a specific question about them because we're not gonna just reteach what we what we have already taught. You know, we can review stuff, but we can't spend ninety minutes reading

other questions too. If there's something that you want to know, you know Yeah. We'll give it our best shot.

Or bring a resource. If you have a resource we haven't talked about, we'll check it out. Yeah.

And, you know, there's always the opportunity in the chat. I might be wrong, but Kat will correct me. You know, if you want to put in the chat, I would like to collaborate. I would like to create a group. I would like to have a, you know, an a support buddy or an accountability partner.

Then there's your opportunity.

Yep. It will be writers coming in, and, it was really fun last time. So It was. So we will we will have that to sort of finish off the year. What are we talking about next month for the episode?

Is it

Well, June is the last live, and that so we will come back after, what, July? Yep. I don't know. We haven't figured that out. You know, we're we are very organized, but we kinda are pantsers.

Oh, we're very pantsers. But the marketing is changing. I we're gonna have a lot of links for you in the show notes for where you can start out. I am again going to put the link to my newsletter, course. You guys we talk about newsletters a lot.

I don't think we talk too much this time, but we do like, newsletter is also where you're going to nurture your ideal reader. So you need to start your newsletter. You need to be confident in that. So if you have newsletter questions Questions

or you need ideas or we've talked a lot about that in the conversation before we started taping because I've listened to a coach writer today have some really great ideas about newsletters and how to write emails to your list that are personal and,

Yeah. Very give a lot of Yeah. We can we can point you in the right direction. Right? So, ideal reader is definitely important.

If you didn't listen till last week on how to identify the ideal reader, you're gonna wanna listen to that. Please download the worksheets. Becky spends time making these specifically for you guys to help you. That is the whole point, to help you, understand this. And I think everyone talks about ideal readers, and you just need to keep

shipping. Are actually the thing is, you know, these are for listeners of the podcast because I do them you know, in my coaching, I would be using these. Mhmm. So you guys are getting them for free.

For free.

We love cat, and we love this podcast, and it's super duper fun. And so you should take advantage of these.

Yeah. Yes. All of

these exercises that we're giving you because

Yes. Please do that because come fall, we have a couple things, in the pipeline that we we would like to do, but we we need you guys to sort of be on the same page as far as marketing goes. So what we want you to do this week is to figure out one thing, one or two things, new things. Maybe they're a little scary to find out where who your ideal reader is to make those and where they are hanging out.

So the last part of this worksheet is three places. You can do three you can do three to five places that you are gonna go look for your ideal readers in the next ninety days, and then what is your first small step? So you say, this week, I will do

something. Something.

But write it down. Make it a contract with yourself.

And then come to the live and tell us if you did it.

Tell us what you did. That you did do it. That's that's Yeah. That you did do it. And I will bring my wand, and maybe I'll wear my tiara too.

I don't know.

And we'll and we'll congratulate you. So, so we hope to see you guys June 12, 3PM. Link is in the show notes. This show notes is gonna

be fun. And we'll celebrate wins because we're gonna talk about all the good stuff that happens because that's what it's about. Good stuff.

Absolutely. Alright. Thank you, Becky.

Oh, you're welcome. Thanks for having me again.

Alright. We'll see you guys next time.

Alright. Bye.

Bye.