Ep 312 Niching Genres and Romancing Your Readers with Laura Cheever

Welcome to Pencils and Lipstick. This is a podcast for indie authors. I'm Cat Caldwell, novelist, short story writer, and book coach. Here on Pencils and Lipstick, we're obsessed with all things story. And it is my goal to bring you the writing tips that you need to make your novel come to life.

Everyone, welcome back to Pencils and Lipstick. This is episode 312, and today I have an interview for you. I will be speaking with Laura Cheevers. Laura is a fantasy writer who writes with strong Christian themes and an emphasis on romance within seasoned marriages. So that is a very niched, genre.

So I wanted to have her on to ask her how she's doing, how she came to that, niche, like how she's doing it with four kids. I highly encourage you guys to check out her, website, Cleave Bond Publishing will be in the show notes below because it is a very fun website. And the way that she has built her business, I think is gonna be interesting for a lot of you guys. So just the way that she treats her newsletter and what she does for them, I think is something that we can all learn from. So be sure to tune in for the interview that will be in just a few minutes.

Before we get into the interview, I just wanna tell you guys that we will be having, interviews. I have literally one, two, three, four, five. I have six more interviews for you guys for this season. Then we'll have a wrap up, episode, and then we will be taking off between, mid July to mid August. I have a senior who graduates high school in a couple weeks, and then I have to send her off to Spain to study college study fashion at college.

And, it's a very, very busy time of just my life at the moment. So we're going to take a month off. Usually we take two, but we're just going to take one this year. And yeah, so I hope that you will tune into these interviews. They're all very different, you know, whether they are writing fantasy or romance or literary or nonfiction, everyone has a different way of how they're approaching their author business.

And I think it's really fascinating, all the different things that everyone is doing. There is no one way to approach this business. One thing that I'm going to be doing this summer is focusing a little bit more on in person. And with that comes deciding really where to go in person. And I think I have decided to not go to specifically romance, events.

And that could be a good idea or it could be a bad idea. I think part of the problem with this, business is that we just don't really know until we do things. I highly encourage you guys to check out your local libraries and your local community centers. A lot of them are starting to have craft and book fairs. So a lot of the towns around me are doing it.

Some of the dates are not lining up for me, unfortunately. But a couple of them are, which I'm very excited about. I think that the sort of the cross pollination between craft and books is something that we can look into. I'm even looking into, collaborating with a friend who owns a jewelry store and sort of putting my hardcover journals, that you can see right there if you're watching on YouTube, with her jewelry, because I think that might make quite a nice bundle. And with one kid off to college and two kids next year in high school, it might be a little easier for me to do a couple more in person even during the year, we will see.

So if you've been listening, you know that my book published on May 8. I was reflecting yesterday and I thought that the spring was so very busy with travel volleyball with my middle one and with graduation that I almost wish I had pushed publication to July. But I have to say, there's no great time to publish. There's always the possibility of news getting in the way, you know, of people's purchasing habits. You know, you still have to do all the publicity.

And I just wanna remind myself and remind everyone out there, even when things are slow. So, like, this launch was a little bit slower than, stepping across the English Channel, which is interesting because I did all of that launch and I didn't hire anyone for it. And it was a lot of work. And now I hired someone for this who is specifically for clothes or romance and it's being very slow. And there's, you know, you can be disappointed in that or you can be frustrated with that or it, it's not always the person who you hire's fault.

People sign up for ARCs. They don't review. We all know that this is an issue. Right. But I wanna remind myself and you listening that a book, is forever.

First of all, in that the first, I would say ninety days. And I think some people would argue with me on that, but I think it's really the first ninety days that are important for the book. We can't really deny that, but you have ninety days. Okay? So, do not think that within the first week, if people don't do what you've asked them to do I know Amazon is cracking down, so people who I am connected to, through Facebook have not been able to review, and that is something that is happening to quite a few people.

For better or for worse, Amazon has made some choices. So you just you cannot control those things. Right? You can only control writing your next book, putting out the best, book product that you possibly can and learning from the experience. And so I think that I will be, I am learning, you know, where to push my book.

I am pushing myself a little bit more to talk, out loud to other people, not just like on the podcast. I actually find it easy to talk to you guys and just looking at myself in the Zoom reflection here. But talking to people out there, you know, out in the wild, out in the world, I highly encourage you guys to do that and to take your time, spend the first ninety days of your book really focusing on honing your, your marketing and maybe pushing yourself to do something kind of scary. I actually sent out a couple different press releases to local newspapers here. I sent, emails out to, to places like actual establishments that show up in the book.

And as of now, guys, no one has has answered. No one has said anything, but that's almost not the point. While it would be nice if, if there was an answer, the point for me was I've never done that before. It feels uncomfortable. Okay.

It's time to do something a little uncomfortable. I will be approaching my library soon. And, you know, it's just, it's something that you have to push yourself. We can't keep doing the same thing. I think things are changing.

I personally think Instagram and TikTok are changing and TikTok has already changed a lot in the last year. So we have to always be looking for, new ways to market. And I think that we cannot neglect what is near us. So everybody nearby, go to the, the local independent bookstores, check out their website. Don't go in in person.

Most of them are tired of us going in in person, and there's usually a form for you to fill out. It will probably take them a few weeks to respond. Go check that out. I recommend even, even if they don't carry your book, they will be, people will be able to purchase your book through their website. A lot of times they use like a bookshop.org sort of linking.

Check for your book because for some reason, IngramSpark does not always match your cover. So my cover has been empty for a lot of these independent bookstores, and it's a great way to email them and attach, you know, a file for them and just say, would you please add a graphic to the book so that when I send people here and tell them that my book is there, they can see the book cover. And it's a great way to sort of introduce yourself as a local author. You know, and I understand that I that we can't ask them to to carry every single book in the world, but I can send people there to order the book and, you know, ask them to put put up the book cover. So that's a way to sort of get in, and introduce yourself there.

So it also, you know, fill out the form and see if they will, host have your book there, host an event. If you host an event, you have to bring the people. So just know that. Yeah. I was like, maybe I should go back home and actually host an event.

And I think people just show up to see, like, have, like, a high school reunion around my book. But if you if you have a lot of friends in one area, it's it's a great way. It's a great thing to do, you know, just have fun out there. So try to push yourself this summer to do something different in your marketing. Also, don't do not forget June 12.

We are having the last of this quarter, like this quarter's, craft and connect live. It's going to be June 12, which is a Friday. It's going to be at 3PM Eastern time. We're changing up the time to see what works for everyone. If you need to sign up, if you want the recording, the recording will not just go out to my entire newsletter.

So please sign up. The link is in the show notes below. Even if you think you might come, I would sign up so that you have the link for you. Then of course we are gonna continue with Craft and Connect next, year. So we will have one more Craft and Connect, recorded episode in June, and then we will start again in September with Craft and Connect with Becky Grogan.

So we will be talking a lot about, you know, just looking at our own marketing, just chatting a lot about what we can bring to you guys, but definitely come with your suggestions or your questions to the live. Especially if there's something that you really can't find good information on and bring it to us and maybe we will do an entire episode. So please be sure to like, and subscribe the episode. Again, we have like seven more weeks of Pencils and Lipstick plus the live Craft and Connect, before we take a little summer break, but it's always nice to have a new review on iTunes or a new review on Spotify or wherever you listen. Be sure to share this.

If you didn't listen last week, that was the Craft and Connect, where to find your ideal readers. We talk a lot about where you can find people. So be sure to go back and listen to that and then be sure to tune in next week. When I have Peter DeHaan, we are talking about, being a nonfiction and a fiction writer and he had an extensive writing career. So we are and he puts out a lot of books.

So again, everyone's doing this a little bit differently. Laura Cheevers is who we're speaking with today. She is a mom, and a homeschooling mom. And she keeps writing books and she gets them out there and she does something really cool with her newsletter. So be sure to stay tuned.

We are gonna talk to her right now. Alright, everyone. I am welcoming today Laura Cheever. I'm very excited to talk to her because we have a little bit in common, moms, writing, all the things. So thank you, Laura, for coming on the show.

Yeah. Thank you for having me.

So I wanted to start out, I think, just how you got into writing because you're a mom of four. It's a lot. A lot of little ones running around and maybe not so little anymore. But how did you get into writing?

I got into writing with some really big final do it myself energy, because my husband and I became Christians five years ago. And after we became Christians through the power of the Holy Spirit, some stuff from earlier in our marriage came out, and it got really, really rocky for a bit. And we weren't sure to make it. But Yeah. God is good and so gracious, and he sustained us, and he saved us.

But then I was in this weird spot where I was falling in love with my husband all over again.

Oh, fine.

Like, there was, like, old hurts to overcome, and then there was, like, babies who needed breakfast. And it it wasn't it wasn't the romance that you see in romance novels. Yeah. And so For sure. I'd be laying in bed at night reading on my Kindle to, like, help me, like, wind down and go to sleep.

And my favorite my favorite genre is high fantasy. Mhmm. Love that there's, like, a really good romantic subplot. So maybe maybe this is a thing in other genres. I haven't been able to find it in mine.

I hope that I'm wrong. I hope I get you I hope you get, like, a bunch of comments on this episode that are, like, actually, that author was totally wrong, and this is her thriving genre. She just hasn't found it. But I was reading all of these books, and it was always here is the big problem for them, and then they get together, and they're married, and it's happily ever after. And it felt like faults in my wounds.

I was like, that's not what marriage is like.

That's so true.

No. And so and it I felt really kind of tarnished and unseen because all the stories just end with happily ever after. And I know easy part. Like Yes. I know it's implied that it goes on Right.

But it's not talked about. And then the part of the marriage that's good part of the romance that's good, the marriage, when you're ten years down the road, that's what is so sweet and so good. That is the enduring love, and we never talk about it. And I was I couldn't find any books about it. I couldn't find any high fantasy that was like, let's talk about what happens when you get your happily ever after and you screw it up.

You have to fight tooth and claw with the grace of God to make it be better again. And so you've done these things. And so I set out with some huge final do it myself energy. I started

That is huge. Like, not only high fantasy, but add a a subgenre romance that you hadn't seen. Like, that's a big ask.

Yeah. It is. It is. So I wrote this one, my first book, called Chosen of the Tapestry. And it's messy and it's raw, but the people that it's for, it's really, really for.

Yeah.

It's about a mom of four little kids. Surprise, surprise. And she's allegedly the chosen one, but her magic doesn't work. And her husband Cool. The chosen king of the kingdom of Frausnendur, but he was, like, usurped as a baby.

And so now he's living as a silversmith. And he knows he's the king, but he doesn't tell his wife. And their marriage is gonna be rocky and messy, and there's a lot of secrets. And then when things come out in the open, there has to be a lot of change and repentance and learning and growing. So that was my first one.

And

it's Oh, that's really good.

It's how I kind of processed that time of my life. So it and it's by far my most, like, emotionally vulnerable book because I was in it while I was writing it.

Yeah.

And since then, things have, like, evolved and changed in my writing, but every single book that I write is about a married couple. They start That's interesting. To get married, and things are not perfect.

I I I think you're right, though. I don't think that that I think that's an untapped genre. Maybe there are others out there. I I would assume maybe there's some women's fiction out there, high fantasy. I'm not sure.

Let's pause for just a second and tell people what what do you mean by high fantasy just in case people don't know.

Okay. So what I mean by high fantasy is I have created an entire world. There is a religious system. There is an allegorical god. There is a language.

There is different culture. So that's particularly in Fraulzeemdore. That is my most high fantasy world that I have created.

Okay.

I have a book that's cozy fantasy, which is it still got, like, a different realm and different things like that happening, but, this one is more cozy. And then I have a serial, which is urban fantasy, but, again, it is still completely based in a different world. It has different landscapes. It has different cities. So when I say high fantasy, I know it's kind of a a loose term.

But when I say it, I mean, I have created an entire universe for this book. It is not happening on our

Oh, okay. Okay. So there is fantasy in which it's kinda set on Earth, but there's, like, fantasy elements, I guess, or fantastical elements in it. Like, Harry Potter would be, like, more

Yeah.

On the cozy. Yeah? Okay. Alright.

I wouldn't I'd call Harry Potter cozy, but, like, personally, but, yeah, I I wouldn't call it high fantasy either because it's all set on Earth. Right. Okay. At the London Underground, and we all know what that

Yeah. Okay. Okay. Okay. Yeah.

There's always these different subgenres within a genre. Right? So we always have to make sure.

So, like, subjective based on what people think.

True.

Yeah.

Yeah. I know. We we all, like, have different definitions for these. But, you know, just trying to, like, make sure where where we fit. So how have you always been drawn to fantasy, like, as a reader?

Yes. Absolutely. My mom wrote a read us Harry Potter out loud as they were coming out when I was a kid. So that's, like, my base point that I was growing up in it. And Lord of the Rings and Narnia, that's where my headspace is.

Yeah. Yeah. Of course. So was this ever, like was this world ever something that you thought about before you thought that you might write it? Or No.

Really?

No. There's, like, pantsers and plotters. Right? So people who just kinda sit down and write and then people who plot. And I've started plotting more since I first started writing, but my first book pantsed start to finish.

I didn't know what was gonna happen. So if it feels like I was making it up, I was.

I was. Well, that's what we do. Did what did you do when you decided to write? Like, did you just, like, I think I'm gonna write a book, and so I'm gonna write a book, or did you go to classes, or did you just sort of wing it? You're just like, I got babies, and I got writing.

This is all I have.

Yeah. It was I actually had an idea for a fictional allegorical god called the Weaver. Okay. And so I sat down and I started typing. I still have the document somewhere in my Google Docs.

It's the story's not like that at all anymore. But I started typing about this allegorical god and this magic system, and then it hit me that it's gotta be goblins because the god of the bible takes the small and the weak and the weird and the the the unlovable. Yeah. So the main characters in that series are actually goblins.

That's so funny. That's cute.

Which and the bad guys are elves. So if you're tired of

Oh, that's, like, opposite. Like, okay.

I like that. Because often we find in real life that the things that are beautiful on the outside may not be so beautiful inside and vice versa. Yeah. And the small and the weak are what God uses to shame the strong and the powerful Right. Because it's not about us.

It's about him.

Yeah. So were you, like what was your relationship with religion before this? Did you have like, did you ever go to church? Did you, like, believe in a god, or were you kind of, like, alongside writing, finding out more about the biblical god? And, like, how is that relationship happening?

I was born and raised Mormon. I converted to Christianity five years ago.

Okay.

And so it's all the same vocabulary, but the gospel is entirely different. Okay. And so I I was a new Christian when I first started writing this. Luckily

But you were raised within, like, an I like, a a belief system, I guess.

Yeah.

Yeah. Okay. I don't know much about Mormonism.

It's very similar terminology. The gospel is kind of inverted from Christian. Yeah. Instead of we are saved by grace and then the fruit is our works. In Mormonism, it's we're saved by our works and then God kind of helps us.

That's rough.

It is it is very different. It is very different. It can be hard to discuss with people because they use the same language. Okay. They use lot of the same scriptures, but out of context, the scripture can say whatever you want it to say.

Yeah. Any any quote can say anything you want it to say. Right? Like

to allow the word of God to interpret the word of God and Yeah. Ask the writers of scripture for what they say.

Yeah.

I don't decide what scripture means. Scripture tells me what I'm supposed to do.

Right. So when you started writing this and you're you're just experiencing, like, a revolution almost in your own marriage and you're writing a different, you know, story, I mean, we all, like, base a lot of our life or, like, what we see into our stories, but it changes so much. Right? Like, it's not like bibliography bibliographies of, like, our life. Me.

Yeah. Exactly. It's like that. But there's, like, a seed. Right?

There's always that seed, but it's so funny when people are like, this is you. It's like, no. Like, it's

I have friends who have read my book, and they're like, I picture Fran looking like you. I'm like, Fran is green.

Thanks, I guess. But okay. Yeah. I mean, it's funny how we have to, like as readers, you we perceive it different, but I've been talking to to readers about this too. It's like, yes.

It's like you get the inkling from this thing or from this person, but, like, by the time the book's done, it's totally different. You know? Like, it's not the same. But so you were sort of you were inspired, though, by, like, what was happening in your life to put it on into the story to for, like, thinking of maybe that next woman down the road that has, like, a a a problem in her marriage or whatever.

I wrote the book that I needed to read when I was Yeah. Vulnerable and hurting and feeling, I want to be charitable towards the Christian church

Mhmm.

Because we are all trying so hard, and we are all broken sinners who need a holy god. But it can feel really awkward to be that person who's like, yeah. But I'm broken broken.

Yeah.

I found I found the one. He's amazing, and then we completely destroyed everything we have. Yeah. And it it can be hard in Christian fiction, especially, because it's especially, holy cow, especially. It can be hard in Christian fiction because things often look really shiny in Christian fiction.

They look pretty neat and tidy, and I'm like, that's not been my experience at all.

Isn't that interesting? Like, now that you're five years into it, like, I I actually had an ace a very candid discussion. I wouldn't say I said argument with a woman who owns a Christian bookstore. And I and she asked me, like, can I put your books in your your in my store? And I said, well, you might not want to because it's because because, unfortunately and I have this complaint too.

The Christian fiction is I like your word. It's too shiny. It's too neat. It's too, like, nice and packaged up really clean. And it's like the whole idea of grace is that we don't deserve it, which means we're not very we're not good.

Like, We're not perfect. We're not good. We don't, like, make these little decisions, and then everything's fine and pray once and everything's fine.

There's no backsliding. There's never the doubt of, yes. I know you've proven yourself to me again and again, but are you for real? There's never, like, the people with the backgrounds that we would find distasteful.

Mhmm.

There's there's kind of sins that we think are okay to use as backstory and sins that we don't think are okay to use as backstory.

Yep. Yeah. Absolutely. And if if you use that one, it better be resolved real fast.

Yes. Yes. They can't struggle. It can't be it can't be that they're fighting with the same issues again and again. And it's it's not that we want to glorify sin.

I never want to glorify sin in my books. The point, though, is to use sin as the backdrop on which God gets to shine. Mhmm. And so if it is a dark backdrop, he is going to be fully.

Right.

But thing is kind of pastel. It will be hard to see that.

Yeah. And it it is so interesting because the Bible is not very pastel. Like, it some of the stories are really hard to accept because you're like, but it's not even resolved. Like, wait. He just, like, did that again.

You know? Like, that's not how because it's real life, and it's not, like, neat, tidy fiction life. So, yeah, I don't know. I don't know the solution to that, quite frankly, because everyone has their different ideas, but it is it's a difficult position to be put in. So to think of, like, CS Lewis and I'm blanking on the on the book.

But, like, where the the guy who's, like, the secondhand warlord for the other side, like, he gets inverted and the you know, because he was writing high fantasy. And in that world, the the king uses him, and the he the one of the king's, like, most loyal servants is like, why would you use him? He's like, if he could do all of that but is now for, like, the other side, but is now willing to work from my side, like, why wouldn't I let him? And, like, that's you know, like, CS Lewis is so good at just, like, those profound statements that would just make you go, oh.

And then you stop. You're kinda staring at your book for a moment like Yes.

Yes. Yes. So I don't know. I I I don't know what the solution is. But but do you put yours your books into Christian fiction, or do you just put it into high fantasy?

Where do you try to find your your audience?

I have tried to write books that are not overtly religious. The serial that I have on my website was never intended to have a faith system, but I cannot talk about saving a marriage. I cannot talk about good and evil without talking about Jesus. Mhmm. I in my life, I got myself into all of my own problems.

I am the bad guy of my own story. And so I look at these stories with characters who are very broken and real like me and you and our husbands, and and I cannot maybe this is maybe this is because I'm not a good enough writer. I don't know. I cannot get them out of these messes without the grace of god. Mhmm.

And so time and time again, I create allegorical gods. In the Frost Nador Chronicles, he's called the, and it's kind of the the creator god who is sovereign over all things. And then in Mending and Madness, we have the great king, and he's the provider god who gives you everything you need. And the thing you need most is him. And then in, A Hoard of Tales, my serial, it's the blood bearer, the god who bled to open the portal to bring his people into a new world.

And I I tried to not make it overtly religious, but that is my experience with being changed and overcoming hardships is with grace.

Yeah.

So it's it's very Christian. I do have readers who are not Christians who really enjoy the books, and I'm so happy that they enjoy the books. That's great. I always put the gospel in the back because I hope that they read it. I don't know if they do, but I hope so.

But, ultimately, this is for a Christian audience. I write for their thirties and forties who have been married for years, and their marriage is just messy and they don't know if god still sees them, that is who I'm writing for. So Yeah. The lady in your small group who is so so normal, that's that's her. She's the one who needs high fantasy adventure that shows that she is the hero.

As a mom with a messy marriage who believes in god but doesn't have perfect faith, that's my heroes.

Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. I I love that idea, Rita. That's perfect.

And I it's interesting because you find a lot of conversation online of people tired of the 20 year old heroin, and you have, like, the opposite you're like, you have exactly what they're looking for. They're like, yeah. Because a lot of times when you re I I just listened to fourth wing, and I was like, you know, like, I think it's just I think it's just age. We're just like, okay. The 22 yeah.

I mean, she's definitely acting like a 22 year old.

I was so dumb, so stupid when I was 18. I should never have been allowed to save the world. I shouldn't be allowed to save the world now, but I at least I'd at least learned some things at this point.

I know. What is our obsession with youth? I'd it must be an American thing. I don't know. But, like, yeah, who wants an 18 year old be in charge of saving the whole kingdom?

Like, no. Thank you.

My female main character in this one is 29. Her husband is 31. And then my characters are in their forties in this one. And then A Horn of Tales, they're in their late thirties. And even that is pretty young, honestly, in my opinion.

Yes. Yeah. But at least they have a little life experience. And and I do love that you have them as moms because, weirdly enough, like, it is actually I find it difficult to add the children in there. Like, not difficult, but it's one more thing in the elements of a story, how you're weaving in the children, how much they come in.

Because a lot of times, if they're small, like, kids are just around. Right? Like They wear all the time. Yes. It's a little they're not always participating actively, but sometimes you know?

And so it does add another dimension of of, like, difficulty as a writer to put that in. So how how have you dealt with that? Are the are the kids around a lot? Are they, like, outside playing?

A bit of both. In this one, for instance, they had to prepare for a great trek to go up the mountains the mountains to find the weft. And it took three weeks because they had to pack for the children and mend all the holes in their jeans. And Puck's stuffy needed to be repaired, and they need to bake extra cookies, and they had to pack everything twice because they kept unpacking everything. And

So very real.

Yeah. So and my kids my kids were really little when I wrote that one, so it was very much where we were at at the time. My kids now, they're 10, 10, eight, and six, so they're a little bit older.

You have twins? Oh my gosh.

No. They're we call them twins.

Okay. Okay. Yeah.

Brady with the family. So I got twins the East way. I did not have to give birth to both of them.

I like that way.

I like that.

Oh, so you have four under the age of 10? Between the ages of 10 and eight, you said?

Two 10 year old and a six year old.

Okay. Well, yeah. They're very busy.

So they are home everywhere all the time. All the time. All

the time.

Right now, they're at McDonald's with my husband who very graciously took them for lunch so I could chat with you.

And he'll be the hero because he took lunch with my

Can I get and see, that that's the type of swoony things that I have my male main characters do? Yes. Take the kids. Make the little the mom can have an interview.

The romance is different, isn't it?

It's alive.

Please take all the little people. Alright. Okay. So when you decided that you were gonna write I mean, you've written four books in five years.

Have you these three and then my other is a serial that's not finished.

Okay. But three and five years is out. Okay. And we're gonna talk about the serial because I'm very interested about that. So how have what has your writing life been like?

Are you do you homeschool as well? Yes. Oh my gosh, girl. Oh my word. So when do you write?

It has kind of changed as the seasons have changed. When my kids were a little bit younger, homeschool did not take as much of the day, so I was able to, like, write when they were taking naps. And then I got a bit older, and so I would write on the weekends. And now school is taking a lot more time because it's getting more academically rigorous for all of us.

Yeah.

So I have recently started writing with dictation.

Which is

so fun. It I'm doing a new project with the dictation because I was like, I do not wanna try and finish my trilogy with something that I'm just barely learning how to do. Yeah.

So

I'm writing their short book of dictation, and it's kind of great because it's forcing me to not nitpick at my chapter until it's, like, fun. It's forcing me to just get words on the paper so I can come back with it later. Because that's something struggled with. It's like, I need to make this perfect. Is it ever gonna be perfect?

No. It's not. Move on. Right? The next chapter.

Get the story done.

Yeah.

And it's helping with that. So, for instance, yesterday, I had to go to Walmart and get, like, milk and whatever. And so I dictated on the way there, and I dictated on the way back. And I

had Okay.

Extra words to add to the manuscript.

So what was that like starting now? Because, I mean, I've done dictation to to be fair. When I first started dictation, I was like,

And then

For some reason, like, it's so like, it you know how sometimes you stare at the blank screen? And, like, sometimes with the I was just like, I don't know. How do I do this? So what was your experience? Were you able to just go straight into it, or what was there a learning curve?

It's very much that. The learning curve was way shorter than I was expecting.

Okay.

I thought it was gonna be, like, a year until my brain learned to tell stories out loud. But I feel like in just a month or two, it's becoming a lot easier. And I I I would imagine it's kind of like talking to a camera can be hard, but, like, you get so that with practice. And it helps if I'm alone because then I'm not embarrassed.

Yes. Although these days, like, I wouldn't do it in Walmart. I have tried to do it in, like, a crowded place because you assume, like, no one's really paying attention. People are all, like, self absorbed, really, but it still feels weird. Like, I think I'm too old to just be, like, talking, but I can be on my phone, like, walking the dog.

Yeah. Yes. Yes. Absolutely.

Do you watch the words come up, or do you, like, record first and then,

put it in? Screen occasionally to make sure it's still recording because I have had where I write an entire amazing scene and it looked down and it stopped. I'm like

Oh, no.

So I I glanced at it every once in a while to make sure.

Okay. Okay. But you're, like, doing other stuff while you're doing it?

Yeah. I try not to read it as it's going because then I'm gonna feel the need to fix everything instead of just getting the story out.

Okay. So then when you when when you're done like, let's say, yesterday, you're at Walmart and you dictated, and then you come home, like, the next time that you write, do you reread what you've dictated, or are you able to remember what where you're you are and you just keep going strictly dictation?

I do not reread. What I have Really? No. I do not. What I have noticed with dictation is that I need a much more concrete outline than I do with writing.

Because with writing, I just read the last paragraph.

So you're not pantsing?

Mhmm. Not anymore. Not with Okay. And, also, I don't have enough time writing anymore that I can just sit there and kind of mull over the idea. It's like I

think of

writing because I have twenty minutes to do it.

Right. Okay. Well, okay. That's a really good point, though, for anyone listening. Like, you aren't just opening it up with, like, the blank slate of your brain.

You have you're glancing at your outline, and you know where you're going. Yeah. That makes sense, actually, now that I think of it. That's a little bit that's a much better way to do it. So how did you do the outline?

Did you dictate the outline, or have you, like do you write that?

I typed that up. Usually, I use the save the cat outline.

Okay.

That's what I did for my past two full the first one was pants. You guys know that. But the past two books, I used Save the Cat, and that worked really well for me. This one is a chiastic outline, so that's different than what I've done before. But I kind of they hit all the points that I wanted and then kind of, like, maybe one or two, like, subsections in each chapter and then just kinda remember where you're at.

And you go to places. It doesn't have to be perfect. It's just Yeah.

So you're happy with the progress so far of that?

Yes.

Okay. Alright. Very cool. I mean, that that makes sense because it is really difficult not to nitpick on your own, like, what you've seen on the screen. Right?

Like, I don't like that word. You know? Like and for some reason, you can be typing and then be like, actually, I need discover instead of find, and then you go back. You know? And, like, okay.

Stop, brain. I need to, like, focus on this. So that is actually a nicer way. Have you seen those, like, half typewriter things now? They're super expensive, so, like, I don't recommend them to anyone.

But the idea is cool. Right?

Mhmm. And then it's like you can't read more than a paragraph because Yes. On your screen. Yeah. That's it.

It's just that is useful.

I can see that. And then I looked at the price tag, and I was like, okay. No. Kids need shoes. I'm like, before I buy a $700 thing.

So let's talk a little bit. So you've your writing career has, like, started you published four years ago? About

'24 is when I published my first book.

Oh, two years. Okay. So you're writing, and then did you did you write three two other books in two years?

Yes. Oh my gosh, girl. So in 2020 yeah. In the summer of twenty twenty three, I started chosen of the tapestry. I published that one the next August.

Then I published lost king of the pattern one year after that. And then sorry, I have to count. Three months later, I published Mendigo Madness. It's probably gonna be a minute until I have another one because I don't have anything else, like, finished right now. But Right.

Those those three came out pretty quick.

I mean, that's very quick. Yeah. Wow. Okay. So in the midst of of doing that, when did you find out that, like, the author courier is not just a book?

And you and I will have to get, like, a mailing list, and you have to get, like, the all the other things, and you have to get people to see the book. Like, when did that learning start happening?

So I was on Instagram for a year and a half, and it made me feel dead inside. So I quit Instagram. Now all I have is a mailing list, and it's this is not like I'm not making a career with this. I am not, like, paying the bills with this at all. This is very much a side thing.

Maybe someday when I have more time, I could do more things.

Yeah. And the kids are out of the house maybe.

Ultimately, my books, they're not for everybody, and so I have to have really realistic expectations about what my audience is going to look like.

Smart. Yeah.

Really for who they they're for. Mhmm. That person is not everybody.

Yeah.

And so I can't expect to have a huge a really wide reach, but what I want is a really deep reach. I want this the book that someone reads, and they're like, this was written for me, specifically. This was I am her. That's what I want. And that's not gonna be everyone, and that's okay.

Yeah. I think that's what most no. Probably 99.9 of the authors really need to understand. Like, the with the minute that you can understand that, you can let go of so many other, like, self imposed expectations. Like and I think that's actually when a lot of times in life when you're able to let go of that, you will actually grow.

And, like, things will get easier because you're just like, okay. I need to reach this subset of people. And then if anyone else gets it, that's great. But this subset needs to get it. So where are you finding your people if you're not on social media?

Because I'm sure some listeners are like, how can she not be on social media? So how do you find your readers?

It's honestly a lot of word-of-mouth. My readers are so kind. They are so generous, and they're really vocal about the books that they like. And usually when they read it, they're like, oh, this has a pretty cover. I like it.

And then they read it, and they're like, this was written for me. I have to tell everybody I know.

Yeah.

So not it's not that I have a very big audience. I had I think I have less than a 100 email subscribers, guys. I am so small. It was so small.

That's right.

But But

if they love your book, that's better than a 100,000 who never opened the emails because they don't even doesn't even register.

In sharing the things that they like. So I, honestly, am relying on people to like the book enough that they'll tell their friends.

Okay. Yeah. I love that. That's I mean, really, that is the ultimate goal. I think, like, the minute that somebody says if ever anyone's to email any author and be like, my friend told a friend who told my cousin to read your book, like, that's the best, you know, like, right there.

That would be Oh,

go ahead.

No. No. You go.

I was gonna say that the nice thing is if it's for one person, her friend is probably also a Christian mother in her mid thirties who has an imperfect marriage and a couple of kids.

What? It kind

of fun attacks. You know?

For sure. Because we gotta keep each other sane. Because we gotta be like, I need to say words that are real words. Please come have coffee with me. So I wanna talk to you about the serial because this is tell us, like, how that idea started.

Maybe start off with, like, what is a serial in case anyone doesn't know, and then where you got the idea and how how it's going.

Okay. So a serial is not a new style of telling stories. This has been going on forever and ever. Amen. Books like The Count of Monte Cristo, which were originally told in a serial format.

They would, like, write up a chapter, and they would publish it in the newspaper. And, ultimately, I started doing this because I had an idea for a book that I was interested in writing, but I also had the problem where I was looking at social media, and I was like, this makes me want to die. I hate this. I hate making content. I'm not an influencer.

I feel so cringe trying to do reels, and I I love it for people who can do it. It was not for me. I could not. So I was trying to figure out how can I give my audience content that is valuable to them, but actually is something that I am good at doing because I'm not making reels? I'm not good at doing selfies.

I so I decided I was going to start sharing this story little chunks at a time and kind of just let my writing speak for itself. So this story, you can find completely free on my website. It's cleavebondpublishing.com. And if you want the new episodes, you wanna be the first person to read it, it comes out on the first Tuesday of every month. And it's just one chapter a month.

And for those who love to binge, I'm so sorry. It's gonna be a slow ride. But it is a free book, so, I mean So

there's that.

So there's that. Yeah.

And how has it been going? It, like, it sounds like such a good idea, but then when you think of it as a writer, you like, I'm sure some people are almost hyperventilating thinking, like, I know I only have to have a chapter done, but, like, I'm gonna share it. Like, how how polished is it?

It's not publishing polished, but it is, I would say, probably, like, 95%

worth. Wow. Okay.

I would imagine if I sat down and edited the whole thing for a book, which I hope to do eventually because I know some people read it, but they will never read it on the serial. I'd probably do one or two more drafts before. But at the moment, it's it's the story I want it to be. It's not perfect, but I think that's part of the charm of it is that you're getting inside my head and you're seeing Yeah. What I see when I'm telling a story.

Yeah. Like, how how a story comes together, honestly. That that's very and I think that's very curious. But did you outline it? Do you know, like, where it's going, or are you pantsing it?

Yeah. Hear me out.

Okay.

I had a vague idea for the story, and then I started writing the story. And now I have mostly an outline. It's not k. There are people who write, like, 20,000 word outlines. Okay?

Alright. Yeah.

But we we don't talk about this.

Do we have an outline? Yes. Is it less than 500 words also? Yes. Oh, yeah.

No worries going.

We know how it's going to end. Yes.

I know how it's gonna get there eventually. You're fine.

See that but I think that's also the charm because if you do want to be part of, like, the actual writing process, like, you know, like, a potter can get on Instagram and show how they've made a pot. Like, they just fast forward the video, but you can't do that as a writer. That's so boring. Right? So this is what it is if you want to see, like, the process.

But I would say, like, it's a good way to make yourself sit down and do it too because that can also be, like, writer's issue. Right? Like, the procrastination and letting go of the inner perfectionism would probably be a really good idea for most of us. You're like, just it's okay. Like, your biggest fans are like, they're the ones who should be trusted to see this part.

Right? Like, it's not like you're sharing it with, like, half the world, and they're all gonna get on Instagram and judge you. Like, take it back.

I know this is probably not the wisest business move. Again, don't take anything I say as this is how a professional should run their business because I'm a mom who's homeschooling and writing because I feel called to, which is completely different thing. But because it's free, I have a lot less, like, internal pressure to make it be what I think the algorithm wants it to be. And instead of story that I want to tell and the story that I think my readers need to see, which are two completely different stories.

Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.

It it helps me to just be able to know no one has subscribed to this with, like, a Patreon account. They gave me their email address that that's all they had to do, which means that I can be really vulnerable with them and not worry about, oh, no. Did I give them content that's good enough for $10 a month? Because they're not paying for it.

Yes. Yes. I actually was just talking, like, two weeks ago. The episode came out where, somebody he had mentioned that he overheard, somebody say, like, maybe the Patreon thing is the way creatives are gonna go. And I was like, oh, no.

I don't want to because I think most of us would feel that way of, like, am I giving you enough for your $8 a month? I don't know. And then you think, like, most people spend $8 on, like, a medium Starbucks. Yeah. So, like, we, like, tie ourselves in knots.

So is it enough? Is it more story, less story? I don't know. So I think you're doing the right doing it the right way. The less pressure, the better, honestly.

Like, they get to be part of something.

And if it's not paying the bills, then I don't really need to worry about that those things. I can be grateful when it happens to cover a new pair of shoes.

Yeah. And I

know that's not everyone's situation, so I I hope I don't come across as preachy to people who are doing what they have to do to pay the bills. But if that's not your situation, then maybe we don't have to worry about it.

Then maybe we don't have to put all that pressure. Yeah. It it I mean, this is a interesting business. We have to, like you have to know enough to get the story in front of people. Right?

Like, you because these days, visibility, you can't just put it on in on Amazon. I almost said Instagram. On Amazon and just think people are gonna find it because there are millions of books. Right? Like, those days are kinda over.

But it is true if you aren't having to scramble to use it as your number one way of paying the bills, you can do a little slower and a little more, like, intentional, and that's okay too. Like, every single way to do this business is completely fine. It I just kind of am trying to get listeners to be like, let's all take a breath because there are, like, a million ways that you can do. A million things that you can be at.

Sleeper agent with that because I have a giant rant with the I won't do here. But I have a giant rant about how there's no one right way to be an author right now because we have so many options, and I see a lot of a lot of people saying what is right and what is wrong Yes. Without being privy to anybody else's life or experiences or resources or what god has called them to do. So, yeah, I agree. I agree.

There's lots of different things to do things, and I do things differently. And I probably do things wrong most of the time. But

Well, according to who, though. Right? Like and and I've talked quite a bit on the podcast of, like, you always understand that the other side of, like, teaching you business or teaching you how to write or teaching you how to get it, that's a business in which people are trying to make money. And so you have to you can't be wishy washy. You have to be like, my way is the best way.

Right? Otherwise, people are like, what? You know? Like, you that's how psychology works. Right?

But it doesn't necessarily mean that it's the best way. It doesn't mean or that it's the best way for you or that it's the only way. So we always just have to, like I get the joy of being like, no. It's not. Like, you don't have to follow that person or or pay for that.

You know? We can all do these things differently. Yeah. And we just we all have to find our own way. Have you have you thought about putting your books into stores?

Is that a a step that you're willing to look at or or have looked at?

I so I used to print through IngramSpark, which allowed

2¢ on? Yeah.

But then prices went up, and I was not willing. I, again, I have no problem with anybody who stayed with Ingram. Like, you do you, friend. But I did not feel comfortable raising my prices to the amount that I would need to to make any kind of profit considering who my target audience is because she's trying to buy milk, and she's trying to buy diapers, and she's trying to buy, cleats for her kid to go to soccer. And I didn't feel good about rise raising my prices that high.

So I am currently exclusively on Amazon, because that's what works for my finances, and that's what works for my readers' mind. And so some people hate that. They don't wanna shop at Amazon. I get it. I'm sorry.

So you can read the cereal if you don't wanna buy on Amazon.

Yeah. I think there's also I was talking to somebody. I don't know if it was on the podcast or outside of like, we we have to be careful about how influenced we are by people's opinions because you don't always know what their actual actions are. So if you want, like, if you want some an author's book in your library, you know, you can work with the the author and your the library to figure that out. But people say a lot without actually following through on it.

So having it up on Ingram, you know, you can be like, I have it there. Like, we tend to scramble to do things because somebody said something somewhere, and then it does nothing. So there's like again, everyone take a breath. Do what's right for you. Most people buy their books on Amazon because they do still do it cheaper.

Of course, they tossed I ordered a book, and they tossed my book onto my porch the other day, which completely ripped the book. And I and I wrote back you know, I don't know who actually reads it because I wanted them to replace it because it's a giant conglomerate, and it can. I can't afford it. I was like, maybe don't don't like, maybe wrap the book. But you know?

So people, if you're willing to spend more, but we we are very psychologically influenced by $15.99 versus $20.99 for a book.

Yeah. And then my target reader is, like, so niche that she's probably not browsing the shelves of Barnes and Noble. She's probably scrolling on her Kindle at 2AM while she nurses her baby. So

Yes. Exactly.

Wouldn't find her in a store anyway.

Yeah. Yeah. You're you are absolutely right. And that is that is key for knowing your ideal reader. Like, where is she when she's right there?

Yeah. Absolutely. I have to replace my Kindle. It's one of those old ones that they won't let me add more.

Yes.

I know. I I don't think they assumed that it would last that long because it's from 2012. And suddenly, a big pop up came up. It was like, you will no longer be able to add new books to this because they're like, oh, we really hope that they would die.

Offensive. You took care of your thing, and now they have

I know. Isn't it funny?

I play out, mom.

It's totally like everyone's gotta hustle and make their own money, I guess. Whatever. Mother's Day, maybe. I don't know. So I can always just still get it on the app on my tablet.

So there's always a workaround.

Screen is just not the same.

It's really not. It's not. I know. And they know that too, don't they? Especially as I get older, I'm like, oh, my eyes.

I really need this. Anyway, it is what it is. Funny Amazon. So I get it if people don't like it, but it is the biggest I think it's the biggest bookstore in the world right now, if I'm not mistaken. But, you know, y'all can, like, protest Amazon and make it come down.

And until that day, our books will be on Amazon. So where can people find you? Pretty much on you're off all social media.

I'm not on any Okay. Media whoever.

No social media.

Nope. I have a newsletter. Comes out twice a month, and that's where you can find me. So if you go to cleavebondpublishing.com, that's where all of my stuff is. And there's a, like, there's a newsletter.

It's kinda there, and you can find all the books and the serial and the the mugs and stuff.

Things. All the things. Yeah. We will definitely have the links in the show notes below. And, yeah, you guys can sign up for the newsletter.

You can find all of her books. You cute little picture of her and her husband. Actually, a couple of pic cute pictures. So we will have the links in the show notes. I highly encourage you guys to go and figure you know, and follow her newsletter.

Sign up for it. See what a serial looks like. You know? And maybe you guys will think about doing a serial for your own, newsletter followers, receivers. I don't know what we call them.

Subscribers. You're right. Alright. Well, thank you so much, Laura. I also have the link to your Amazon page in the show notes so people can go find that.

Otherwise, it is Laura if you guys are listening. Cheever, c h e e v e r. Correct? Alright. So if you're listening, you can keep that in your head.

But thank you so much, Laura, for coming on the show and talking to me.

For having me on. Bye, Kat. Bye.