Ep 326 Rewriting Happily Ever After with JM Hackman

Welcome to Pencils and Lipstick. This is a podcast for indie authors. I'm Cat Caldwell, novelist, short story writer, and book coach. Here on Pencils and Lipstick, we're obsessed with bold things story, and it is my goal to bring you the writing tips that you need to make your novel come to life. Hi, everyone.

Welcome back to Pencils and Lipstick. This is episode 326, and we have an interview for you today. I am interviewing J. M. Hackman.

We call her Jill because now we're besties, basically. If you guys missed Craft and Connect, that was last week. That was a recorded one. We're going to have a live Craft and Connect in October. So stay tuned for that.

The information is in the show notes below if you want to sign up for the live already, But if you missed last week, be sure to go back and listen to it. Today, Jill and I are talking all about her Firebrand Chronicles, how she got into writing and of course her, Once Upon a Retelling, which is how to write a fairy tale, and this is for authors. So if you were thinking about writing a retelling, you might want to check out this book. The links are going to be in the show notes below. It's interesting, thinking about stories and, you know, they all always say that, like, there's nothing new under the sun.

We're all just sort of retelling things, but it's while that might be true, I think it's also good to review, like, what the story was when you, have decided to do a retelling. Right? So, like, understanding the beats of Cinderella or, Snow White or Sleeping Beauty or whatever. It can actually help you get sort of your your book template out. Of course, retellings are not specifically, you know, like always adhere to the old story.

You have your own creativity. You can, you know, you can go off that beaten path if you want. But if you were thinking about maybe brushing up on fairy tales, maybe how to incorporate it into your fantasy novel or just your modern day novel, I would suggest that you check out Once Upon a Retelling. It's pretty interesting, workbook to help writers. Right?

So I hope you guys are getting some writing done as we head into October. Is that crazy or what? I will be gone, in the first part of October. You won't you won't notice though that the show will keep going. Of course, please subscribe and share the podcast with everyone.

You know that you can watch the interview on YouTube as usual. You can watch it on Substack as well. And if you would like to support the show, the one place that you could do that is on Substack. And when you subscribe to sub Substack, you actually get my short stories that I write for the NYC midnight contest, which I sometimes get to the second round and have never gotten yet to the final round, but that's okay. The wonderful thing about that is that the judges three different judges give me, a critique, like feedback on each story.

So if you support wanna support Pencils and Lipstick, wanna support me, you will actually get access to reading the critiques. I think that we can learn a lot more actually from the editing and critiques that other people give us. Of course, sometimes you can tell it's little, it's kind of like an opinion and they have to make choices on stuff. And sometimes you can, I can read it and say, okay, yeah, that thing probably got me like put into the bottom of the pile depending on how many people were there? Right.

So it's a great way to learn. I highly recommend NYC con Midnight Contest. I think they're really fun. And again, for the price, you're actually getting three, three professional editors to give you, feedback. So I think that it is one of the few contests that does that.

So let's get into the interview. Please, again, remember to like, subscribe wherever you're listening to. Check out the links below because you can find JM Heckman Hackman's, website and her books. You can check out both her fiction books and her nonfiction books for writers, and you can join her newsletter as well. Alright.

Let's get into the interview. Okay, everyone. Welcome back to Pencils and Lipstick. I am here with JM Hackman. We're gonna call her Jill.

But JM Hackman, if you guys love fantasy, sci fi, we're gonna talk about all of it. But thank you, Jill, for coming on and talking with me today.

Thanks for having me.

So let's start out a little bit with what you write because I've never I mean, it makes sense, but I haven't heard of somebody describe it like that. So I asked you just earlier, do you write fantasy or sci fi? And you said, yes. Yeah. But tell us a little bit about what makes your your books distinct.

The Firebrand Chronicles are the first books that were published.

Not the

first ones I wrote, but the first ones that were published, by a small press that's now defunct. And it was it's a portal fantasy. It's the Chronicles of Narnia meets Harry Potter meets, I mean, it's kind of a conglomeration of things. And I had I had started it because I read Harry Potter, to be honest with you. And it fascinated me.

And I was like, what if Harry, you know, Harry Potter wasn't a wizard? And what if he were a girl? And what if it were gifts that he received that were very visible? And that kind of morphed into a girl named Brenna who can create fire with her bare hands, but only because she's from an alternate world. And her mother goes missing, so she goes through the portal to find her.

And that's how it all started. But in the midst of that, while I was writing that, my youngest star I have two daughters. My youngest daughter was diagnosed with ADHD. Right. And, of course, that's a whole another world.

Yeah.

It just the I just plunged into it trying to find out what I could you know, trying to find out why it was that way or what the symptoms were, ways to treat it, all that kind of stuff. And I remember thinking there's nobody out there literary. There's no literary characters with ADHD. Now I will say, Rick Riordan made Percy Jackson have ADHD and dyslexia.

And dyslexia. Yep.

But then he explained it away by saying, oh, he's a demigod. So that's why. And I'm like Great. That was a missed opportunity in my opinion. I think he should have, like, really honed in to show people this is what it's like.

This is what you know, this is the these are the struggles. But instead of just like, oh, he's a demigod, so it's fine. Yeah.

So it's like it's like that telling, you know, and not really showing. And it never really comes up, like, the dyslexia until like, it comes up in school. Like, he sees things moving, but that's because he technically reads the Greek god language. Right? But my oldest is dyslexic and she loved that.

And then, like, it never comes up again. And you're just kinda like, oh, well, I mean, you gotta read things and you gotta, like an ADHD and dyslexia are kind of fun when you talk to them because they have like different way of explaining stuff. You know? They could have a lot of a lot of fun with them as a character.

Yeah. That outside the box thinker is definitely.

Yes.

Yes. So I remember thinking I would love to do that. And so I talked to my youngest and I said, do you mind if I make Brenna have ADHD? And she kinda, then she looked at me. She said, like me?

I said, yeah. And she goes, yeah. And she's kinda lit up, and I was like, okay. So at that point and a lot of people read the books and go, why does she make such dumb choices? And I'm like, it's not really dumb.

It's just, you know, impulsive decisions. It's the impulse here coming in. Yeah. Yeah. So we kinda went into that.

And so I had Brenna be ADHD, and that became a kind of a big issue in the books that she actually struggles with. You see her struggling with it. Oh, that's cool. Yeah. And, I finished that.

I started the first book in well, I started the first book way, way, way before it was published. That was years. Too many years because I wasn't taking it seriously. Yeah. And then, see, that was it was released in 2016.

And then the last book, which is it's three books. The last book was released in 2020. And amidst the pandemic. Yay. And then there was a box set, just an ebook box set that was released right after that.

And then, like I said, a couple weeks later or a couple of years later, excuse me, the press closed its doors. And I got all the rights back, and I'm like, what do I do now? What do I do? I, you know, I had no intention of going indie. So I'm a push didn't.

No. No. No.

Okay. So you were happy you had sold, like, to traditional I mean, it's a big deal to sell, especially I feel like COVID is a turning point for a lot of things. I mean, indies were becoming more and more and more. Right? But lots of people thought they could start writing

in COVID. Yeah.

Yeah. But, unfortunately, a lot of places close. A lot of presses close after COVID, which is odd. You think that I feel like more people are reading, but that could probably just be my algorithm feed.

Right.

You know what I mean? Because the statistics don't don't line up with us in America, at least. So you had no intention of going indie. So

No. I went traditional. I went traditional. I had actually I had previously I'd written a story that won an award that allowed me to get registration to a conference

for free.

And at that conference, I pitched the first book, which was called Spark. And that book was accepted through one of the pitches, and I went traditional. I was like, yay. It's all taken care of. And then the

Well, you had a relatively easy time.

Yeah. Relatively. Except you're learning everything that you don't know, which is a lot.

Which is a lot. And then you A lot of people go years pitching and pitching and pitching, and they they just Well,

that was previous that was before that. Because before that, before I had children, I was writing Christian Romhom.

Okay.

And that was pitch after pitch after pitch and rejection after rejection, and that was really soul sucking. I mean Yes. That's that's the way it works. That's the way it works. And I Yeah.

I think you're right. I think they're actually out to tell people to stop writing without They're like, stop it. Stop it. Yeah. So actually sad.

I feel like the Christian world needs some rom com.

Mhmm. Yeah. I agree with you.

Life is too serious already. We need to have some laughs.

Yeah. You know? But, anyway, so that was that was that did not work. So then I I had children. And in that

That changed everything.

I was I was ready to give it up anyway because Mhmm. As you probably know, when you have Christian fiction of any kind

Yeah.

The publishers cater to the most conservative of their readers.

Yes.

And so there's all these local. Yeah. And you couldn't say things. Like, you couldn't say that you thought he was cute or or you couldn't think it was hot. That was a heat was out.

You couldn't mention heat.

You can't mention tongue or lips.

Yeah. Right. Yep. All that all that. There's things you can't mention.

I'm like, we're we're writing a romance here. There's gonna you're gonna notice these things. Yes. And I kinda just gave up. I was like, I'm done.

I don't blame you.

I'm done. So I had children. Harry Potter came out. I went to fantasy. Very happy with that.

Did that for a long time.

Quite the switch, though. I mean, not everyone can just go from rom com to fantasy because there are, like, rules and things. You know? But you you mentioned it kind of like CS Lewis. Like, did you grow up reading CS Lewis?

So you kinda had Well,

I read The Chronicles of Narnia. Yeah.

It's kind

of like and then I had read also, oh, Lloyd Alexander. I read some of his stuff. I read, Tolkien, but not until I was in college because I read it in high school. I started the Hobbit in high school and thought it was the most boring thing

I ever saw. So boring. My brother loved it, and I was like, oh my gosh.

Yeah. I had to I had to wait till college so I could actually get through it.

And then

it was good. I could appreciate the world building, but Yeah. Yeah.

The paragraphs of pumpkins of, like Yes. Okay.

I mean, yeah. I mean, he's he's great, but yeah. So I did that. And then of course, I'm trying to think. I did a lot of romance writing or reading.

Yeah. Just I I just But

you had a kind of a basis of fantasy.

Yeah. I I just like to read Just anything and everything.

Serial romance. Allowed to just read without saying what genre it was? Mhmm. Yeah. They were all considered classics.

Like, I never heard CS Lewis be called the fantasy. Like, when I we went to a super conservative church when I was really little

Mhmm.

That wouldn't have been allowed, but he was classic. So you were allowed to read music.

He's, like, one of the most he's, like, one of the most quotable and I don't know, he just so thoughtful and thought provoking. Yes. And but only because he's classic is he allowed to be read. That's crazy.

Well, and I would always bring it up because I so we went to we changed churches when I was a teenager, but some of my friends stayed, and they were against like, their parents were part of the anti Harry Potter thing. And I was like, well, what's the difference? They're like, well, they're wizards. And I was like, well, there are witches.

Yeah.

And it was almost like they were had to go back and thumb through it and, like, turn the chip off, you know, what was allowed, what was not allowed. And, you know, I I mean, don't get me wrong, anyone who's listening. I love I love my church, but sometimes it's like any group. You go into group think, and you don't question. Mhmm.

That's why I read it. That's why I read it because all these people are like, it's horrible. It'll make you I don't know. It it combust. I don't I don't know.

It was these

weird things.

Yes. Yes. And I was like, okay. I'm gonna read it. I was very skeptical.

I was like, yeah. Boy, wizard. Right? And I read it, and I was like, this is really good. There were all these themes of, like, self sacrifice and bravery and friendship.

And, you know, it wasn't a Christian worldview. No. But there were good themes in there. I don't think you should throw books at kids and say read it and then walk away. I really don't.

I think you need to sit and talk with them about things that might be questionable. You know? Yeah. And so I did. I I let them read it, but I was like and then my daughter brought up something.

She's like, well, he's a good witch. I'm like, let's talk about that. And so we talked about it, and then she was like, oh, okay. She got it, and I was like, good. Okay.

You know? But I really am a firm believer in reading what your kids are reading if you can. I know it's it's crazy because they're busy, and there's, you know, if you have more than one, there's, like, lots of reading. And so sometimes you just end up skimming just to make sure there's nothing questioned.

Absolutely. Absolutely.

But, yeah. I just think it's important. And and there it's a good there are good themes in it. You know? Yes.

I I think that so when people go, oh, it's that evil book. I'm like, here we go. Okay.

Here we go again. I know. I I have this discussion a lot because I am I don't write for the Christian market because I and I bring this up politely. I can't stand the complaints. I really can't.

And, I mean, I just got a review the other day of their lustful thoughts or something. It's closed door, but they have lustful thoughts. And I was like, it's a romance. Have you ever read song of

Solomon? Yeah.

True. I mean, it's so funny because, I mean, I still am very conscious of it. You know? But you just, like, you guys do realize that we we're not writing our books for every specific person. You could go to your AI bot and train it to write you a book like that if you really like, if you need every book to be exactly how you are.

And in the end, books should expand your thought process. True. And what I really disliked when I got to college was, like, I didn't there was not as much challenging of thought process in my very small town, very rural. You know, there weren't as many books. And, in fact, my my grandparents challenged me a lot, but but, you know, you have to then like, you're gonna be confronted in life with Mhmm.

Books and and ideas and Mhmm. People and differences. And what do you actually think when no one's there to tell you Right.

Right.

What this is and whether you should or shouldn't read it. Like, ugh.

Right. I think you should. I don't I don't I'm not a a big proponent of banned books. I think it's that's not the writing. So I think that you put the books out there, and who wants to read it can.

And if you're concerned about what your kids are reading, then you go to them and you talk to them about it. You talk about why

you're interested in

the book. You know? Yeah. Or if it's something that you just think is, like, totally inappropriate, okay. Explain to them why.

See, this is what you're gonna find in here. You know? This is why we don't this is why we don't wanna read it. But to just say, oh, we're gonna ban it. I'm like, because it okay.

Right now, it's that book you don't like. But down the road, is it your book that they're gonna ban? What about the Bible? Are they gonna ban that? The things that you find precious and you find valuable, are they gonna ban that?

Who decides? Who decides?

Who decides? That's my biggest question is who decides? Like, my youngest is gonna be reading The Boy in the Striped Pajamas this this summer, and she we've already read it. I'm a big proponent of reading history. Mhmm.

But there are a couple parents who are like, oh, but it's very violent. It's like, yes. But it's true. It's happened, and it could happen again if you don't read about what it is. And it's an amazing book.

It's so good. Like, to be able to write from the point of view what I really love about that book have you read it?

Not yet. Oh, you

should definitely

read it.

It's a You book for you. You can get through it pretty quickly. But what what is amazing about it is that it's a little boy. I think he's, like, 10. And he doesn't have any judgment because he's 10, and he's just and he is the son of the German commander of the camp.

Okay.

So he doesn't understand what's going on. And what's great about the book, and I'm so glad it was written before this time, is he's not judging anything. He's experiencing it.

Mhmm.

And you're making you're like, oh, no. Oh, no. Oh, because you can see what's happening.

Right.

But I saw the other day on TikTok, somebody was saying, do you guys realize that when an author's writing a story, it does not mean that they approve of everything their characters are doing.

Mhmm.

And I thought this is terrible. This is this is where we are now that you can't even write this from the point of view of somebody else. I wonder if Right. I wonder if people would quote, unquote, you know, ban it. Like Mhmm.

Everyone who's against banning somehow on TikTok ends up being banned. You know? They start banning things. But it's true. You're you're you're not necessarily pro your main character.

You're exploring an idea.

Mhmm. Yeah. The fact that someone even needed to say that is pretty sad.

Right.

You know? I don't know.

What does that even mean? Does it mean like, is JK Rowling, like, pro evil? Because she has evil people, and it's like, that's not that's making it so like, bringing it down to to nothing. I don't know. It's very strange, the world that we live in.

Yeah. I agree with that. I I agree with that. Anyway, so you got back to you asked, you know, about what I was writing. And so after writing for fantasy portal fantasy for it was, like, eight plus years.

I think it was, like, a really long time.

The three books?

Yeah. Or the four yeah. Yeah. I just was done. And I thought, well, I'd read, where the Lunar Chronicles.

Excuse me. Lunar Chronicles. And I love those. Ursa Meyer was the author. And there was it was they were retellings, fairy tale retellings, but they were also kind of fantastical with a little bit of sci fi thrown in.

And I couldn't find any other books that were like that. They're probably out there, but I I couldn't find them at the time. And I thought that's a really neat idea to actually take a fairy tale retelling and make it modern. Make I mean, like, more than modern futurize it to sort of

see. That is cool.

And I was like, okay. So I kinda jumped in with both feet, and I was trying to decide. I actually wrote a, it was a Snow White retelling first, and that's still sitting in my computer. I haven't done the edits on it yet. That's gonna come out next year.

Oh, fun. But in the meantime, I read something smaller, and I did Red Riding Hood.

Okay.

But I don't know if you've looked on that on the Internet, on Amazon at all for that kind of thing, but they're all dark, steamy, depressing.

Oh, I know.

You know? And I'm like, I don't want dark and steamy. I want light bringing hope filled. You know? That's what I'm looking for.

Right. So I I decided to to do Red Riding Hood in a futuristic society, not dystopian, but futuristic. And so there's tech and there's, you know, neon and I'm there's another kind of world building. It's not famous evil swords and sorcery. It's more trying to think ahead Yeah.

And also building out sideways. Like, you can't I can't determine what's gonna come up. Like, I could have never ten years ago, I could never have said, oh, yeah. We're gonna have AI and believed it. So you kinda have to work sideways.

Like, what things do we not have that we'd love to have? You know? And you kinda you're flying cars, for example. Yeah. Kinda kinda build out that way.

And, Red Riding Hood at its core is a morality tale.

Right.

It's don't it's actually was a morality tale for young girls entering the court of the fourteenth. And it was, you know, beware of the wolves, older men who seduce younger women. You know? So you you obey your parents, you stay on the path, you, you know, you say no. All those things that the story is about.

And, of course, you can go deep into it and say, oh, it's symbolism for coming of age and womanhood and all that kind of stuff. But I was just like, well, my characters are older. They're like 20, 21, 22. That's we're beyond listening to our parents at this point. So I was like, so we're just gonna go with the the main the main thrust where there's the wolf, and he wants the grandma, and he wants the girl, and he you know?

And so we have that, then we have the hero. So it was it all worked out well. It was it did deal with sexual, not assault, but, you know, sexual overtones because the guy's a creep, basically. And but I didn't go into the weeds with

the exist.

Yeah. I tried to I tried to be I do want people going, it's horrible because he did x. So I was like, okay. We're just gonna have him be the borderline creep.

Right.

That, you know, and

Those are actually scarier, I feel like.

The yeah. Because you don't know what he's gonna do. Yeah. So but I had I had the the the heat

the not the hero.

The villain, you know, kind of be this sexual creep, you know, and she's she's struggling. The grandma doesn't wanna see her granddaughter struggling. The hero definitely doesn't wanna see the heroine struggling, but it all, you know, it all comes together at the end. Happy ending, happily ever after, which I'm a big a big fan of. And so and I think that's why they that's why fairy tales work because we know what to expect.

We know it's once upon a time and ends happily ever after. And is it unrealistic? Yeah. Because life is full of garbage.

We got enough realism.

Yeah. True. True. So I like to be able to take a book and go,

that was That's yes.

Yes. Now is it realistic? Probably not. We don't care about that. We're happy.

It was so that's kind of where where I went with that. It I was really happy with how it turned out. That was released April last year.

Okay. What's it called?

All the Wild Hearts.

Oh, that like that title.

So Did

you use the same pen name?

Yeah. I did. Okay. Okay.

Yep. Have you found like, was that a decision to have made or, like, I I did it because I didn't think of it, but I don't know what other people think.

I I did it because at the time, and I'm not sure if this is this is a true fact or not, I thought there was, like, a bias against women who were doing fantasy or even sci fi. Any kind of speculative fiction, I kinda felt there was like a, oh, well, that's a men's thing. Of Of course, now you're seeing all these, you know, with with JK Rowling, that kinda changed everything.

So. Yeah.

But, yeah, I went with JM. And also because it kinda gave me a little bit of distance from the person. It's a persona that's like, that's my writing person, and this is you know, Jill is over here. Right. Just kinda gave me some separation.

I I kinda like the initials. I kinda wish I had done initials. I I don't know. I just think it looks good. And, anyway, lots lots of people go on and on about the Amazon algorithm and the different genres or whatever, and I'm like, I don't know.

It's a lot. It would be a lot to keep two pen names, three pen like

Yeah.

You know? The unless you're making a lot of money and you can get the what do we call them? VAs or PAs or whatever, but the assistant, you know, to help you. Yeah. Before that.

Yeah. Neither could I. How has it been being an indie author then? Did you try to find another press?

Yes. Yes. I did. That was something that when the the small press closed its doors, I kinda was they said you have sixty days to get your book, you know, to you have the rights to your book. I'm like, I I I don't have an editor.

I don't have a new cover. I don't have a program. I don't know.

They didn't give you the cover either?

No. Because that was through the publisher. So I'm like, it and so I just spent a lot of time just trying to figure out what I was gonna do. So I spent a lot of time in prayer. I spent a lot of time asking people, what do you think?

Just I was I was lost. I was lost. It was a very much

to get a whole ISBN and everything new?

I didn't know anything.

So you lost all your reviews and everything?

No. No. No. That's the good thing. That's the good.

That's good. Yeah. Okay. But there were I just so much I didn't know.

Yeah. And That's a crash course right there. That's hard.

Drinking from fire hose.

Yeah. Yeah. Because there's a lot.

Yeah. So so I spent after deciding, okay. I think I'm supposed to go indie, although it made no sense to me at all. I I still don't know why I'm indie, to be honest with you. But I had I had pitched a little bit a little bit, and I was just like, no.

This is this is this is bad too. I remember this from years ago. This is not any better now. So I just thought I think

it's worse now.

I had a lot of people ghost me, which never happened way back when. I was like, you don't ghost people. You respond even if it's no thank you, even if it's a form letter. I didn't get that. I was getting ghosted.

I was like, this is just not right.

I think so many people think that they can write. And during COVID, they they spent time like, enough time to to dip their toes into it, but not enough to actually understand storytelling in the industry. Mhmm. That would never have happened, like, ten years ago. You know, you would never have pitched a half thought through manuscript.

Mhmm. As an edit like, I closed down my editing because I was getting manuscripts that were probably first draft.

Like Wow.

No indentation, no dialogue tags, no, like, things that so I can't I can't even imagine what agents are getting these days. It just and then you can't really be I wouldn't even call it rude. You can't be truthful on social media of, like, don't do this. This because people come after you because everyone thinks that they have the right to do whatever they want. And, like and I'm picking up books because I like to support indie authors that are being published like that.

Mhmm. Like, indie wise, and you're just like, okay. This is not working. Yeah. So that's that's not Yeah.

Unfortunately, everything has changed a lot.

Yeah. So, anyway, that that's, I I didn't have any access to anything, so I bought a formatting program. I bought you know, I looked for cover designers.

Your covers are beautiful.

Well, thank you. That actually, to be honest with you, the original, the, the covers that are there now, but the, you know, the portal and everything, my husband designed those.

Oh, those are nice.

Yeah. I was I was pretty happy with it because I didn't have any money, you know, so I can't Well, yeah.

What people don't know is three three covers would be a good, like, 1,500, if not more.

Yeah. So he has some some design experience.

No. You didn't.

And I was like, you know, we fought about it.

I mean, it looks exactly like what it is. Right? Like, it looks like a fantasy portal. Like, that's what it's supposed to do. It's great.

Yeah. Thank you. That's a good sense. Yeah. So that was that was that.

And then, like I said, I got bored and. It's funny. I mentioned about my daughter having ADHD. It was I'm she's not the only one that has

She's the only

one that I mean, I haven't been fully diagnosed, but I'm definitely neuro You know? There's something going on there.

When you start looking at your own kids, you go, wait a minute. Yeah. It's just that we're from the eighties, and so nobody cared. They're all like, go outside. You're fine.

You know?

That's true. That is true. So, anyway, I went to, sci fi and started doing retails, you know, retellings of fairy tales. And, yeah, it's it's a lot of fun, and you get that. Fairy tales give you the framework, and then you can you have the beginning, you have the end, you have the couple beats in the center you have to hit to make it

Okay.

You know? The retinal. Right.

Right.

And then at that point, then you just embellish and add and twist, and you can do whatever you want to it. You know? It's it's a lot of fun. It gives you a lot of freedom.

Yeah. And they're becoming very popular now.

They are.

I think the biggest thing you the biggest trick to them because my kids were, they're a little spaced out, but there were a lot of retellings of, I think it was Snow White, actually, that came out, a couple of them. And they're they they're not called Snow White, but there was one, there were a couple that we had and, you know, they were good enough and but there were the the biggest issue I had with the retellings is they stepped off from the hero rescuing the girl. And I get what they're trying to do. They're trying to say, like, girl power, you know, and Yeah. As a mom of girls, I was like, that's but there's, like, there's a a balance.

Right? Like, when one of them she, like, literally locks the hero in the cabin so that she can go fight the wolf herself. And I stopped the movie and was like, why do we never lock help out of a dangerous situation, girls? And they were like, mom. But I was like, listen.

Let's think this through. You're about to go fight a 10 foot wolf. Maybe you should let the hero come along. Like, maybe you I'm not saying you have to cower in the corner. I'm just saying, like, maybe you don't lock him purposely in the closet.

You

know? Yeah.

Anyway, that's where I was I'm like, come on. I understand the girl power. I love like, that's great. But unless it makes sense,

I don't know. That's part of the twisting of fairy tales. You twist it that and that's a twist. Choice. You know?

Right. That

that you twist that and, you know, create a different theme of girl empowerment, which is fine. That that's that's you do you. You do your thing. But I think that there's a part of some women, maybe not all, some women that desire that, hey. I want the hero to sacrifice for me.

I wanna see I'm important. I wanna be a priority. And, you know, he's he wants to help. You know? And so, yeah, you can fight, but you're right.

Have him help because this is a huge this is a this is a big bad villain. You know? You wanna Right. You wanna be able to fight it together and live. Right.

So I was like,

I'm not sure I'd let you marry that dude. You know? Like, unless there are, like, claw marks where he's trying to get out. Like Right. Is he just like, oh, I guess she didn't want me to help her.

You know? Like, I just I don't know. But I'm an over over analyzer, you know Yeah. Which isn't always the greatest. But but I have seen a lot of retellings coming, and you're right.

A lot of them have gone really dark. They're very either murder heavy, you know, like mystery heavy or

Very spicy.

Spicy. Yeah. Like, very smutty. Mhmm.

Yeah. Especially with Red Riding Hood, you get the you get the shifter, you know, the the alpha hole, you know, or the guy that, you know, very possessive. And I'm like, why do we romanticize possessiveness? Because if you had a guy who truly treated you that way, you'd be running, or at least you should be running anyway. So, yeah, I I kinda have I like the shifter stories.

I don't like the spice, but I like the I like the I mean, you wanna be important. You want, you know, as a as a as a if you were a heroin, you'd wanna be important. You'd wanna be valued.

But Absolutely.

But there's also that I don't know. It's it's a it's a very that that some of those tropes that you find in in romances and shifter stories, especially, get really twisted and not in a good way. You know, we kinda go on, this is a good thing. I don't know. This is not you know?

It's such a fine line between It is. Being valued and being controlled. You know? So controlled.

Yep. Yeah. Yep. That's actually why, and I always tell people on I don't have many followings on TikTok, but I'm like, you're an adult. You can read whatever you want.

But you can't lecture like, Colleen Hoover, I read one of her books. The last it ends with us, I think, is, like, her first one. And lots of people have lots of feelings about it and whatever. You're allowed to feel however you want about it. But I thought it was really interesting to use the literary device to explore the very blurred line of love, control

Mhmm.

Somebody who you love is clearly mentally ill

Mhmm.

And where you draw the line and when you call it for yourself. And what like, I thought she did I mean, and she wrote it very young and without any training.

Mhmm.

It gives a very interesting exploration of that without making without romanticizing. Mhmm.

Most of what I saw regarding her was the the fact that and this is happening even more now, that we're getting adult content labeled as You.

Oh, yes. And that's the publisher's fault

for sure. I I know that there's a woman I know. She, she'd been writing You stuff published by one of the big five, and she turned in her manuscript to the to her agent. And they said, you know, Laurie, this is never gonna get published unless you put sex on the page. Yeah.

This is You. Yeah. And I was just like, okay. We need, like, a rating system or something to let people know. Not to say you can't read it, just to know they I mean, I hate reading, and all of a sudden, you get this spicy scene that makes no sense.

There's no reason for it.

And then

they just go along their merry way. And I'm like, what was that? It you know, it doesn't make sense to me.

So Because back the old romance books like, you read romance. I read romance. You knew what you were get but it made sense. Like, the historical romances, they would get married or, you know, like and you know it was coming. You you could but now my problem is that it is yeah.

It's just thrown in there. It's lit it's writing maybe a story around smut. That's it. Like Yeah. It's the smut that's the the the core of the story Oh, yeah.

Of the book. I had one someone asked about my stories. They're like, oh, is this have spice? I'm like, no. There's no spice in it.

You won't miss it because it's a good story, but there's no spice. Oh, I like the spice. And she walked away. I was like, okay. Well, you know, you're not my reader, obviously.

Yeah. No. You know? So

Yeah. Like, if you want just but that's where we're getting off on, like, the the road of the genre. Like, if it's romance, there was always a story. Those stories were, like, this thick. Like, there was definitely a story around that.

Yeah. And there might have been one or two scenes. That's it. Right. Like, it was never, like, about the spice.

Now it has changed, and the whole You thing. Like, there's the it's 12 to 18.

Mhmm.

12 Right. 18. That's a huge difference in age. And I'm sure when you were young, nobody policed what I read. Like, when I went to the library, my mom never checked.

No. But we didn't live in this time either.

Right. I think my mom did say there was a Judy Blume book I was allowed to read, and I went ahead and read it to the Of course.

Clear the best way to get kids to read. She probably did it on purpose. Don't read that one. What is it? Like, are you there?

God, it's me, Margie.

No. It wasn't that one. It was, it was one of her didn't she write the book wifey? I don't know. I think it was I think that was Judy Blume.

And I read I read that one, and it was it would do yeah. I mean, it was questionable. But, I mean, I didn't I'm trying I turned out okay. I'm not like, you know, yeah, lunatic or anything.

But I was thinking back when I was a kid and I went to again, pretty like conservative, like not politically, just religiously conservative, but there was a whole series of books, that they didn't have scenes in them, but they they all had a moral. You know? Like, they were all dealing with, like, whether, you know, you're kind of, one was, like, in an inner city and, like, pulled into, you know, the tempting to be in a gang, and one was, about abortion, one was about sex. And I I remember they don't have that scene, but they have her how she felt afterwards. And it was pretty, like, you like, the writing was good enough as a teen to be, like, they were really delving into feelings and even, like, the physical what was happening Mhmm.

With her body and all that stuff. Mhmm. And I'm now I'm surprised that it was allowed. I don't think the I don't think the adults read it. I think they just like, oh, this is a good moral of the story.

You know, moral don't do this, you know, sort of thing. But I'm not sure why. I can't remember what those those books are called. But now, oh my gosh, we do need a rating system. And we Yeah.

I think we need a whole new genre. I think we need, like, smut. That's a genre. Yeah. If you don't have a real story and, again, read whatever you want.

I don't care. Right. But I as as a romance writer, I'm like, I'm actually writing love stories, and I get reviews of people are like, meh. This doesn't have any spice on it. Like, no.

Because it's an actual story.

It's got a plot. It has

a plot. Yeah.

So I yeah. I agree with you. There's a there's a story. I'm gonna mention this because I think it's horrible, and I'm horrified by it. And there's a book out there called Sibylline.

Have you heard about it? Yes. Yes. That's that is the that's why I got so upset about this because that should never like, if it's not if you're an adult, you can eat what you want, but that should never be

That should

be better than a book for someone who's as young as 12 would be reading.

No. And that needs a trigger warning for adults. I read the scene, and I was, like, vomiting in the corner. Yep. I would be upset about reading that book.

Yeah. If and you I think we you you hit on something too of, like, with the alpha holes and things. Like, I'm a mom of girls. Mhmm. I want you to have a healthy view of, like, your value, how a man should treat you, what love actually is.

And I do think it's interesting that in real life, these authors and these publishers wouldn't allow that. You know? Mhmm. They have opinions about real men like that that are completely opposite to what their opinions are about the the book men. And, again, if you're an adult, you're an adult, but why would you want that to be shaping the ideas of a of a forming brain?

Mhmm. I I that's where I get really kinda like, what are you guys trying to do? That that that whole thing was very strange to me. Mhmm.

No apology from the author. No apology from publisher.

And I think it's a lot.

To be a sequel. I don't know if there will be I I mean, the it got review bombed badly on Goodreads and Amazon. It just did not

Well, and they didn't even listen to the beta readers. And the beta the arc readers were like, this is not okay. Right. It's not okay. Mhmm.

Like, just if people don't know, there's, like like, dead people Mhmm. Involved. Your imagination can go.

Yeah. Threesomes and dead people.

And dead people. Like, gross. Mhmm. Yeah. So the I mean, that's that is, like, that is pushing that's not even pushing the intellect.

Like, that's not intellectual. That's just pushing, like, I don't know what we're

Yeah. I don't know what the point is. I I read the scene. I was like, and what happens now? And that's kinda gross, and why are we doing this?

And this was your this was the other thing is if he's not dead, okay, let's just say he's not dead, then it's non consent. Right. So it's rape.

And I'm like Which appear which which technically in the romance world is not okay. Right. Like, they will they're canceling all like, Kathleen Woodley's and all the bodice ripper people, but this this is worse. But I didn't read the whole book. I only read that one.

But I was like, unless they address the fact that, like, they violently assaulted this person without their consent, This is not

okay Yeah.

At all. Yeah. It's very strange. I think the publishing world again, like, there are unfortunately, scandal sells a lot in America. You know?

The clickbait, we we you and I both know about this even though we're not readers of this, you know, and it's good. On one hand, it's good so I know I can tell my kids no. You're not reading that. And it has a very beautiful cover.

It does. It does.

Which is Yeah. Also I

would've I would've picked it up.

Yes. I would've picked it up. Yes. That's what's very strange to me. I go to do you ever go to in person, events Yeah.

And you will look around and you're like, I wonder what's between the cover. You know? Like, bless you. Thank you. It's interesting because the whole thing of, like, don't judge a book by its cover.

We absolutely do. And we absolutely buy books because of the cover. Mhmm. And then a lot of times you get the book and you're like, okay. It makes a very pretty paperweight.

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So

So you have but, I mean, you also have anthologies here. Let's get back to your

I do.

Your writing. How have you worked with people? Like or did you just submit it? Or, like, what was that project like?

Well, the one, the two of them, two of the anthologies were this woman who does I think the name of the series is Fellowship of Fantasy, and she'll, like, take submissions. And it's usually based on theme. See that. Okay. And then you just go from there.

And then, you know, and

So you submitted and she kinda deals Right.

With the package. Which was nice because then I just write the story and then I just give it to her and we're done. Yes. Revising revising and then we're done. And she did that with the cover.

She got the ISBN. She's she's pretty, she's pretty prolific, you know? Know. So this is, like, I think just, like, a side thing she decided to do, you know. And she can do it in addition to all her other books, which is crazy.

And then there was another one called Encircled, which was a group of us that were friends, and we were all writers. And we had thought, wouldn't it be fun to do a anthology an anthology, excuse me, of fairy tale retellings? And so what we did is each one of us picked a fairy tale retelling, a fairy tale to retell. And there was a wide variety of genres within that anthology. Like, one was slightly, I'd say, borderline horror.

Another one, there were two mine and other persons that was sci fi. Another person did one that was a retelling of Snow White, but it was in an alternate world with it still had the Fae, but I think there was, like, a a dry ad in it. You know? So it was, like, very different. And all of them were good.

I I loved all of them. You know? Yeah. And and I'll tell you this. This was so amazing.

That project had six women involved, and there was no fighting. There was no drama. It was very cooperative. It was one of the best projects I've ever worked on. It was just a real pleasure.

Wow. So yeah. That would then that was a lot of fun. We did that one.

That's very curious.

Wow. No fighting. Yeah. It was it was a good experience. It was very good.

And I wish we would have done more. But after that was re was published, everyone just kinda we took a break, and then everyone, like, one girl ended up getting pregnant and having children. She's got, like, four children now. Another person decided not to write anymore. Another person, you know, was you know, she's, subbing to, the the big five publishers.

You know? So we're all just kinda, like, scattered. And to probably try to get together, gonna do it, it's just probably not gonna happen, which is too sad because it I would have loved to have done done another one.

Yeah. Getting six people together would be rough.

Yeah. But it was it was good, though. It was a good experience.

No. I is that on Amazon in circles? Mhmm. Okay.

I can even I have the it's like this.

Oh, it's beautiful.

Yeah. So yeah. Also, the That's

People can find it. That's I like I like shorter stories, novellas. I I really hope that those kind of become a thing again. I wish that yeah. I would love to get, like, a reader's digest thing every month with, like, short stories.

I see. Yeah.

It would be so much fun.

But that'd be a lot of work, though.

Oh, yeah. I don't wanna do it. I want someone else to do it. I wanna receive it and read it. That's what Okay.

You wanna just wanna be a consumer, not not producer.

I mean, I wish that I had the time and energy and know how to to produce it. Like, that would be amazing. But Yeah. My my biggest problem is I don't know how to do sales. I'd be like, here's this thing I made.

Yeah. Nobody knows how to do sales. No one who's a writer knows I mean, okay. That's not fair. Most writers don't know how to do sales.

Writers. I I feel I was born in the wrong century. I'm gonna be in my little studio writing, and then I release it, and I never have to see it again. And that's it. But that's not the way it works now.

Now you have all this marketing and sales, and you have the algorithm you're trying to deal with, which doesn't work. It doesn't work.

I

know. You know? So yeah. And I that's I think that's if someone would say, well, you know, I think a lot of people think I'm just rolling in it, and I'm like, I am making no money. I'm doing it because I feel called, because I love writing.

I love telling stories. You if you don't love it, don't do it because you won't get any monetary value from it, really, unless you don't strike it rich like JK Rowling, which is you hear about it because it's because it's amazing.

Well, it's unusual, and it happened in the nineties, and she's a good storyteller.

Mhmm.

Like, you can I I you know, from the first book to the eighth eighth book, eighth or ninth, something like that, you can tell she's gross?

Mhmm.

She's a phenomenal storyteller. Like, you can nitpick at things. You can always nitpick at things, you know, like, whatever. But the storytelling is amazing. Mhmm.

And But everybody who writes thinks that. They think that they're amazing, and that's the problem. You not that they're not, but the the the the chance of a writer becoming big like JK Rowling is, like, it's probably a better chance to win the lottery, to be honest with you.

Literally.

You know? So it's not the fact that I think it's worthless. It's just you have to have reasonable expectations. And I think when I started, I didn't have reasonable expectations. You know, I I expected things to be different.

And so that took some time for me to okay. This is what it's gonna be like. You know, do I still wanna do it? Yeah. Still feel called.

Still have stories to tell. You know, I'll probably do this until I can't anymore or the money runs out. You know?

I mean, I think that's why most people end up being editors or teachers. And I've I've talked to somebody a couple weeks ago, and they're like, well, you know, it's the old adage. If you can't do it, you those who can't do it, teach. And I was like, that's not true. It's because you can't you can't be heard or seen through the the hoards of books out there anymore.

You know? Like I mean, people who are getting the Netflix or whatever, they have people working on that with them. Mhmm. And there's no wrong way to get to where you are, but everyone I've talked to, and I have over 200 interviews with authors, anyone who's anyone has had a connection somewhere that has helped them, which is how the world works. Right?

Like, that's how it works. It's very rare that you get anywhere all by yourself. Right. And especially now. Like, I I even know some people who did really well in 2012 when the Kindle came out because I got a Kindle at the I lived in Europe at that time, and I was I just really wanted to read.

There were very few books on there. If you were a voracious reader, you were always looking for something. And so and the the threshold was pretty low. Like, you know, you just you, I guess, you you knew that the biggest hits weren't on the Kindle, so you never expected Right. That.

Right? Although some really great romance writers were on there. Mhmm. And they made a lot of money, which is great. They made a career of it until everything hit at 2017, and then everything hit again at 2020 and 2021.

And some sales went up during COVID, but only, you know like, it's a very hit and miss industry. I thought I would make a career of it. Thank goodness I have a husband who has a career. I mean, otherwise, it would be editing that would is what sustains me, really. Like, if I had to feed my children, I would go teach and edit.

That's how it works. Right. You know? Yeah. Yeah.

Or a lot of I do know people who write in a certain pen name for certain genres. That's

Yeah. I you know, I've said that to my husband. I said, you know, if I wanted to make money

I know what I'd have to do. I just wouldn't like it.

Yeah. I I don't I don't I look at my writing as something that I look at writing as a god given gift. Mhmm. And I don't think I could write that and then turn around and go here. Yeah.

Look, I wrote. Because that's to me, it's that's not I mean and that's that's a personal decision. If someone else feels that they have no problem with that, that's, you know, that's fine. I just don't think I could I could do that. And so my stuff is not spicy, you know, hopefully it's it's, you know, interesting and it's exciting, but I don't really, you know, I just don't wanna write it.

It's so funny. I just, I just, this was not a conversation for the longest time. I remember reading I go up, like, like, I read everything except for horror. Horror kinda gets me. But I I'm a voracious reader.

Usually goes up and down. You know? When kids were little or it was a lot less. But I remember reading a World War two action thriller, and it had a scene in it. And I was like, I did not know that this would could be a thing in another genre other than romance.

And I was an adult, you know, like, because I just hadn't come across it. But it was just never it was never a thing. Like, you just wrote a book. Yeah. Like, you you read a book.

It was either good or wasn't good.

Right.

But now yeah. So how how is marketing for you now that you've been tossed into being an indie author against your will, and now you have to do everything yourself?

I I knew from my from my personal publishing days, I knew that I have to do the marketing. I knew that. And and then you hear that all the time. You know, if you're expecting your publisher, do your marketing.

Okay. So you had to do some things with them?

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. There was a because it was a small press. It wasn't, you know Sure. Big five or anything.

So I was like, okay. You know? And I I'm I'm not good at it. You know? It's like, you don't wanna buy my book, do you?

Please. So, so but I would say that in person is where I get most of my sales. I do well in person, which is interesting. But I would say if I'm not in person and it's online, I still haven't figured out where you get your sales because it's the social media doesn't work. If you're trying to use it to sell, it doesn't work.

I have not tried TikTok only because it's another platform. Excuse me. Another platform. Quickly. I just don't in fact, I was gonna do a TikTok shop, and someone said, well, you have to have a 100 followers in order to do that.

And I was like, okay. That doesn't work. You know? So it's just You

can get followers really quickly on TikTok. It's very different than Instagram. But it is ever since it sold the without the algorithm, it sold the TikTok, but it didn't sell the algorithm. Like, it's very different. It's really different.

Different or bad different?

Not great different. It it's a it's gonna become a shopping place. I think that's what they were always trying to. But the biggest difference between the algorithm is, like, America does clickbait to by making you mad. Literally I mean, that's what we do.

Right? Like Right. Oh, look at this this story. Facebook knows that it will make you really mad so that you'll comment. You know?

And TikTok would just put you in a bubble. And so it was really easy to find authors and readers because you just got into this bubble if you were really if you would talk about your books. And now my algorithm is just, like, everything all over the place. I say the World Cup in, like, TikTok. It's like, do you wanna see World Cup videos?

I'm like, no. I don't. Don't stop. And I I want I can see it very Americanized now. And I can't I can I have to go searching for, like, my book friends?

It's very strange. It it I it would be interesting to talk to other people who did really well in TikTok, like, a year and a half ago if it's still working for them. Mhmm. But I don't think you can start now. I think people who have, like, their 20 plus thousand followers on Instagram are probably selling you know, could make a connection between the sales.

But starting now, I mean, I have less than 2,000 followers, and I work at being on Instagram. It's like us crawling through mud. They really don't like me. I don't know why.

They're like,

go away, Kat. We've told you 500. We're trying to tell you we don't like you here. So I'm not there's no way I'm selling. You know, if you start now, like, it's so hard.

Right.

Yeah. That's why I'm just not sure that I'm not sure that social media is the way to go. I'm getting I mean, because because I've heard people saying the algorithm is broken. You know? And I'm thinking, do I really wanna and it it makes me feel rotten when I scroll.

You know? I end up feeling worse, which is not an unusual Well,

and it's good question. Like, have you ever bought a book from Instagram? Like, I've never bought a book because I saw it on Instagram.

I've gone looking. I've gone looking at Amazon for it, but that's I'd I'd never bought through through Instagram on something like that.

No. You're right. I don't think that we can. Right?

Yes. Social media gives you exposure. Yes. But it doesn't create sales, and that's the that's the

And you don't have

to figure out

what is worth it.

Right.

So you're I have been thinking a lot about in person, and I've been telling people, I really think the in person thing is the way to go. It takes a lot of time. Mhmm. It's not free, but nothing's free, really. Right.

So where are you going with your fantasy and sci fi? What what side of the country are you on? East Coast. Okay. You're East Coast.

I mean, the good thing is there are things, but what have you found to be, like, the best? Like, genre specific or not genre specific or very local, more wide?

This is this is weird, but I found that I do best. There's a local craft fair every it's usually around the holiday season. Mhmm. And it's a low entry fee, and I do best there, which is And it's not

like it's not just books.

Mm-mm. In fact, I'm one of the I think I'm like one of, like, a handful of authors, which is weird. I think it's because it's Christmas time, and people go, oh, I can put that book in a stocking, you know, or whatever. Right. And so that's why it works.

And it's a pretty low ticket item. I mean, it's you don't have to sell them for $50. Like Right. Yeah. Interesting.

So So craft fairs. Yeah. I've been telling people that and the the biggest problem is sometimes they're hit and miss. Yeah. You know?

It really depends on where you are and who else is there and, you know, what time of year

it rains.

Oh, I I won't do outside outside in person stuff because it's books. It's paper. You know? And if it rains

You're done. Mhmm. Yeah. But I did an in person one at a mall once with the whole Virginia writers club. Oh.

Northern Virginia. We did it, and there was nobody there. Nobody came in. It was a really nice fall day. No one came in.

It was around I think the idea was, like, it was around back to school. Mhmm. Until the idea was, like, people would be coming in, but nobody was in. It was a beautiful fall day. I would have stayed outside too.

You know? Like, I I wouldn't have come. So and that's the thing. You just don't know. But I tell people, okay.

It's that or Instagram. Like, I don't know where else to go, honestly.

Yeah. Someone said to me, oh, someone said to me just recently, you should go to this mall. They have a they have a bookstore. I'm like, oh. And I because I didn't I mean, malls are a dying breed.

Mhmm.

And I was like, oh, so I should check that out. And then I started thinking, you're an indie author. Good luck on getting into a bookstore. Because a lot of times, they won't they don't they don't want indie authors because they're thinking it's, like, probably, like, AI slop or not, excuse me, not well done. Yeah.

And you have no way of going, no. My book really is good. You should Yes.

Please give me a chance.

Yeah. So it's it's tough. You you you have to do in person or you have to just really go after the marketing on social media and hope that there's that there's, you know, you can get some traction.

Yeah. Yeah. Collaboration with people, I think, is gonna help. I know Barnes and Noble, they do allow you in there. You have to have your books on IngramSpark, which you and I were talking about how difficult they are to work with their people don't know how difficult IngramSpark is to work with.

I wish I could, like, sit a rep down and be like, sit down with me while I do this process so that you can watch how terrible, painful it is. It's so funny because people hate on Amazon. You're like, yeah. But at least it's easy.

Yeah. It's a lot easier than your work.

Yeah. Very it's so much easier. But what people don't understand is you have to they'll give you a slot. Maybe they'll give you a slot, but you have to get people there. Mhmm.

Right? Like, people are buying online, so you need to bring foot traffic in. Mhmm. You need to do it somehow. You gotta there's a lot of different components more than just, like, book tour.

But Yeah. Right.

You're an indie author. You have no no publisher behind you.

Yeah. I've not had good luck being an indie author and getting in. Now when I was with a small press, I had two of my launch two of the three launches were at Barnes and Noble. And the guy there was a peach. I liked him so much.

He was, like, so supportive. And then last time I went in to for All the Wild Hearts, I asked, you know, I said, is he here? And they said, no. He moved. He he left and is working somewhere else.

I was like, oh, there there's my connection. Yeah. There's a connection. And they said, you can sign up. You can ask corporate.

And I was like, okay. It's not gonna happen.

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. You gotta decide where you're putting your energy. Right?

So if things are working yeah, I I do I do encourage all the listeners, like, to to start thinking a little bit outside the box. Just because it's a craft fair does not mean that you won't do well. Right. And you just don't know until you do it. You know?

I was talking to one that day that it was kind of terrible. He was like, it's funny because I was at the AquaCon craft fair or something. He's like, I sold out. I brought 50 books and sold all of them, and you just never know. And it's really fun to meet people and be like, okay.

I actually sold books today. It's like the greatest feeling ever. It's like, people wanted my books. That's so good.

I do think it matters how many books you have out. Oh, really? Have a finished series, that matters. Okay. Because if you have, like, one and two, people will just wait until you get the third book released.

You know? Interesting.

So I think it I think it matters if you have a finished series. I think it matters how many books you have. Because if you have more books, more choices. Right. So I think that also so if you have one book, I wouldn't go for in person and be disappointed if you didn't do well.

Yeah. I mean, at that point, I'd start focusing on maybe trying to get people to sign up for your newsletter while you're there.

That's just a nice share a table or something.

Mhmm. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

So that's that's just some a few things to think about. You know, how many books you have out, whether your series is finished, if you're writing a series.

Do you think it matters how your display is?

Oh, yeah. I think I I think it does. Yeah. I mean, sometimes you're very limited by what you can do. Mhmm.

But other times, you know, like, I know the one that I get that's a local one. I have some, like, crates that build up so that you've got, like, a different levels to the display. You know? It's just

So you can get kinda seen. Mhmm. Yeah. What about the banners? Do you do a banner?

I have a ban I have a banner that goes over the front of the table, and it says, JM Hackman. And it said I think it has, a picture of my logo, and that's I think that's about it. I don't think it has the word author on it. But I had someone come up and they go, did you write all these? The sign says, Jame Hackman.

I'm like, yeah. Yeah. It is. You're an author. I'm like, yeah.

And you wear all these? I'm like, yeah. And I'm like, oh. Just like

See, that's the fun part about being in person. You can just be like connect the dots.

I mean, to be fair, I mean, some people may not know how it works. I mean, it's it's, you know, but I just was like, yeah. And they're like, oh. Then another person was like, you're a writer. I'm like, yes.

And she's like, I mean, her eyes got like, it was like the best day of her life. I said, would you like a bookmark? Yes.

Yes. See, it's so much fun. Yeah. I mean, if I had been a kid and I had met an author, to me, that would have been like, oh my gosh.

Right. Well, this was a grown woman.

Yes. I mean, like, I'm in this world, but I would've like, if you if I walk past Barbara Kingsolver or even James Patterson, which I I don't read, I would still be like, hi. I would fangirl. I'd be like, it's amazing. You've made a whole career out of this.

JK Rowling, like, anybody who's made a career, I would just be like,

oh my gosh.

Yeah. That's so

Yeah. The thing is there's no there's no magic button. You know? There's no you get five people, five writers in a room, you'll get five different solutions on how to make it big.

So That's so true. Yeah. So but you you have your books out. You have your bookmarks. So bookmarks you give away for free.

I still try to sell those,

and I was like, I

don't like that. If they're special, maybe. Like, if you have, like, I don't know, charms coming from it or something. Yeah. I mean, I I don't know.

I had somebody who actually was even charging for a book to be autographed. Oh. Like, it was, like, $12, for example, $12 for the book and then 15 to be autographed. I was like, no. I'm sorry.

If you're in person, that's a that that's a bonus. You know?

Yeah. That's why you're there. That's the whole point. Yeah. Okay.

That's interesting. Yeah. I did see somebody selling candles or and then next so

I was

next the last time I was next to somebody selling candles and books and bracelets and books. And I'm watching people, and it's the bracelets and it's the candles that are drawing them in. And I was like, that's so interesting. And then I wore it a bit in my head of, like, do I care if people buy the book because they want the bracelet or not?

Oh, so the bracelet was, like, bundled with the book?

Then you could buy a bundle or you could buy the book or or you could buy the bracelet. But twice I heard somebody say, well, I guess I'll get the bundle. I really want the bracelet, or I really want the candle. And and they're, like, thinking out loud. Right?

And I was like, do I care if, you know, like, that they don't really want my book? Maybe I shouldn't care. You know? And it was just like these things in my head going back and forth of, like, well

not a reader, what are they gonna do with a book?

I guess, put it on their shelf. They really want the, yeah, I I mean, it it is something to think about. Right? Like, does it matter? I don't know.

I don't yeah. Yeah. That's a tough question.

I know. I know. And she was smart about it. She had, like, bracelets with charms of books and readers and, you know, we really like merch in America. We love it.

We love merch. But but it's also an investment. You gotta buy

that. Right.

So what if it doesn't work?

Yeah. That's yeah. I mean, like, I have sometimes when I have so my books, I also sell book cozies as well with them. Yeah. And the those those I have some on an Etsy shop, you know, and so they'll sell.

I'm I need to make more because I'm really lucky.

Make them. So that's one thing. If you know how to make them, that's one thing. If you gotta buy it

Yeah. But you still have to buy the material.

You still have to buy the material. Yeah. And I have

a pile of material here that needs to be still You

gotta find the time. Right?

Yeah. Again. But that was the thing. I thought, well, after I release, I have a workbook coming out next week. You know, that will be released

on top of that fairy

tale. Yeah. And, and then I'll be releasing a beauty and the beast retelling

Mhmm.

Probably, like, around no later than August, I think. And so I thought when those two are done, then I can take a break, and I can do other things. I'll still be marketing, but I'll be

ready for Christmas.

Yeah. So Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. It's it's it's all these things, but I think it's really good to be to be talking to other authors, you know, get those five in a room. What are you doing? What can I do?

What works with my personality? What works with budget, honestly, because you still have to pay for the the table and Mhmm. You know, what works with my energy if you have different things going on physically. You know? So but we gotta have the conversations because if you're writing good stories, people need good stories.

Right? And how do you get it into the hands of people? People? So well, I I will definitely have the links to all your books in the show notes. I think the best place is to go to jmhackman.com.

Right? And you have, like, all your books there.

I really get the can you get the books there? Yeah. You can Well,

you can you can click to find them. Right. And the fairy tale retelling book workbook looks really awesome. I think, now that you've said it, I'm like, oh, actually, retellings are really fun. And I bet, like, the the techniques are probably the same whether it's a fairy tale retelling or a classic retelling.

Like, what are the rules? What are the how can you apply it? So Right. We will have the links. Is there anywhere else that do you have a newsletter that people can sign up for?

I do.

If you

go to my website, jamehackman.com, there's a little pop up that says, you know, take this quiz, you know, to see what book trope you are, and that also leads you to my newsletter.

Okay. And do you ever tell people on the newsletter if you're gonna be in person? Oh, yeah. People around the East Coast, they can go find you.

That's always fun to meet people. Yeah.

Well, thank you so much, Jill, for coming on and talking with us.

Thanks for having me.

It was fun to talk today.

Yeah. Same to you.