Ep 325 Stop Throwing Spaghetti Craft&Connect #5

Welcome to Pencils and Lipstick. This is a podcast for indie authors. I'm Cat Caldwell, novelist, short story writer, and book coach. Here on Pencils and Lipstick, we're obsessed with bold things story. And it is my goal to bring you the writing tips that you need to make your novel come to life.

Okay. It's craft and connect hour with Becky and Kat. How's that? I'm gonna get my ride on. Welcome back to crafting connect.

We sound like a Disney yeah. We could be like a Disney thing. Kat and Becky take on marketing.

Take on marketing.

Yeah. Take on do your deep voice. Do your hi. This is Becky. It's like Anyway okay.

See, we've already started. First three seconds of look. We're gone. We're on

an We're we're on a roll. Every everyone comes for the for the little quips and the the conversations. But how are you doing, Becky? It has been all summer since we've I know. Connected.

I've been seeing your face. Uh-huh. So it's been a weird summer. It's been a slumpy summer. You know, where it feels like we were talking about like, you being in that dip and now trying to come out of it.

So, yeah, nothing major majorly bad happened. So, that's a win. Yeah. Just busy and too hot. I'm still way too hot, and it makes me really crabby.

We got one more day. I checked the weather. We have one more day, and then it hits, like, the seventies, and then it just starts going down, and that's that's gonna be close.

Thank you. Because I tell you what, I cannot stop.

Hot summer.

It was a very hot summer. And my birthday was on the twelfth, and that's when I think fall starts.

And it stopped in that way. I know. It audaciously went up to 92 degrees. It's like

I'm very disappointed.

I walked outside and was like, no. No. No. No. No.

This is not how this should

be. I'm I'm looking at my sweatshirts in my closet going. I'm going to wear it soon. I promise I'm going to wear it soon. But yeah.

So anyway yeah. So how about you? Everything great? I know you had a really big change this summer with your lovely daughter.

I sent my daughter away. Well, it's kind of we're in the same boat. You're you're a dad. Went and I sent my daughter. Yeah.

I vanished her to the ends of the earth.

I banished her to Spain.

I banished her to go study. She's having fun. It is weird. I think the other day, I went all day. Like, I was just so busy, and it got to the evening, and I was like, oh my gosh.

I can't get used to her not being here.

The house feels different. It sounds different. I remember when I took Jace, my son, to, when he started school and I was driving. He said he was in kindergarten or whatever. And I'm driving and I I look in the rear view mirror and I went I honestly for a second thought I had left him him somewhere because I was so expecting him to be in that car seat behind me that I absolutely panicked.

And then I went, oh, he's at school.

He's having a life without his mom.

But then it's like, oh, I can go to TJ Maxx.

Like, without little hands gripping everything.

No. Without are we done yet? Are we I'm bored. Bored.

Go play with the dog plushies.

Yeah. Yeah.

I know. They grow up really quickly, and I know everyone says that. And when you're in the midst of it, like, the toddlers and the nine year old attitude and then the 12 year old attitude, and you're like, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Great. You know? I think it's one of those things. It's like actually giving birth. You just you get really mad when the doctor's like, oh, you'll know.

And you're like, give me a hint. You know? But you do. You you know. And then once they are gone, you're like, god.

How did that happen? Yeah.

And then the heartache because you know that they're doing fine.

Yeah.

Or you hope they are. But you still those moments where it's like, you're unguarded and you just go, oh, I need my baby. Where's my baby? Yeah. I know.

It's tough. It's very tough. But we have lots of things to do. We're grown up

too.

So What? We have things to do.

I have to be an adult now? Okay.

So Let's adult and and get this show on the road, Kat, because

I I think most people are in I know. This is not the crying hour, although it is a c, so the alliteration is there.

Yeah. Crafting, connected, crying. There you go. That's a good one.

So marketing wise, this summer, it was a bit slow. I think most people are well, you know, I think most of us who have all the things in which, you know, they aren't an established books is a full time job with employees, you know, because there are people like that. We're gonna have little caveats here. Those people like the Kirsten Oliphants and, you know, the people who have, like, figured that out and made it and they have their people I don't know. They probably did something this summer.

Then those of us who are starting out and they're just like, I just tried to write, you know, in between the pools and the and the children and the working full time or whatever people are doing. And then there are those, you know, a little step up. It's like you have a couple books. You do things here and there sporadically because you know you gotta. Right?

So that's who who we're going to focus on because that is like, summer is rough, I think. Yes. Technically, you have more time, but not really. You know? So No.

I mean, for me, it was a learning summer. I learned a lot this summer. I I coached with Dallas Travers, established how I wanna set up my group coaching, learned a lot about writing really good, emails and newsletters to to nurture my group, my very my little special group of people who follow me. And just really understanding that, you know, you can't stop learning, you know, and it's it's it can be frustrating sometimes because I'm just like, I've been doing this a long time, but things change all the time. You're you have to adapt and that's a big part of marketing is actually stepping back and understanding, Not trends because I don't like the whole trend thing.

Okay.

But what what is your messaging saying? What is my narrative? What am I trying to tell people?

Yeah.

And am I really targeting the correct people? So I spent a lot of time this summer looking at that and really looking at, am I getting to the point with my marketing? Am I telling people what I really want them to know? Or am I creating this big fluffy, because I tend to be fluffy, stuff around the message, which is here in the middle of all this cotton candy instead of really just focusing strategically and specifically on what I'm trying to tell them.

Oh, I love that

you said that. Good letter. Yes. I really actually wrote a great email about when I pulled a thong out of my drawer and thought it was a headband.

Yes. I do, Zara. Trying to put it on.

Like Do you know that that's the thing is that's just like that's my life. That was a very true, email for me because that's the way that I live. I and it but it does it is a good metaphor for trying to take something and make it something that it's not.

Right. And I mean, not reflecting to to to stop

and not on my head and then there was one thing I had on

my mind. Two poles.

I was like, what is going on here? But that that I think is a good lead in to what we were talking about is that your marketing has to fit. Stop trying to do the square peg in the round hole, and that goes back to what we talk about is you are you. You don't need to be anyone else, but you have to understand yourself first. And we got a lot of stuff to talk about with that later on in the show.

But I'm gonna shut up now and, take care of my allergies, and you go, Kat.

But I I think this is especially asking these questions as a as an author because you are now responsible for all your marketing. It's not it's not just questions that a a marketing expert should be asking themselves. It's we should be asking. So you get through the first wave of of purchasers or readers, and now your messaging isn't working anymore because, you know, for the first wave, it was like fans and friends and, oh, your cover is pretty. And now you actually have to get to the people who are looking at you know, let's say they're scrolling 10 books on the the BookBub front page, and why are they gonna choose yours?

What did they see about yours that would make them click that over? So it gets a little bit deeper, and you have to if something isn't working or it's not moving, I just saw somebody today who's like, I have 10,000 followers on TikTok. You would think that I have sales, and then she panned to her KDP. And I was like, no. Because you're not even talking about your book that much.

You know? Or you're not strategically speaking to the reader. There's a difference between talking to your TikTok audience and being strategic and specific about your book marketing. This is something this is very important for you guys to understand. We can always get confused about that.

Many times have I gotten confused, and you start going down the rabbit hole. And like you said, you have to sit back and say, okay. What what am I doing? So part of this conversation came from you being at RWA, which was, I'm sure, amazing. Yes.

But people Yes. We're a minister

from American National Conference.

National Conference. Next year, it'll be in Denver. Right?

Or and it's in Portland next year. Portland, Oregon. Portland. I know. But it was an amazing conference, and there was so much valuable information that went back and forth.

And I was just amazed at the way it felt. It was joyful. It was respectful. It was supportive. Everybody was there to lift each other up.

There was none of this competition or anything like that. So that was really wonderful to spend five or six days with people who are all in that same headspace of we all do the same thing, we all have goals, we support each other, and the ages went from, I think, like 20 to 80. So there was all levels of experience and it was fabulous. But one thing that I saw was that writers were not ready to pitch their books. And they

probably thought they were ready though, which is the worst part.

Well, we're gonna work on that more for the next conference. That's something that we're gonna gonna focus on a little bit more. But one of the things that really, it hurt my soul, actually. I stood there in the back of the the agent was sitting at the table. The writers were on the other side.

You have three to seven minutes to talk about your book. And I can't tell you how many times he said. And he's a big agent from New York City. Big agency. Lots of potential there.

And he would say, so tell me about your book. Tell me, like, in one sentence about your book. And this is what probably eight out of 10 people said. Well, it's a romance.

He's like, well, we're at a romance conference.

And the character, I mean, it was just like, okay. You wrote this book.

Yeah. If you can't It's not uncommon, though. This is not No.

It's not uncommon. And I know part of it is nerves, but, you know, when we were sitting outside before we went into took each person in to meet the agent, we talked about it. I'm like, what is your book about in one sentence if you had to tell somebody? What is this book about? Can you do that?

And it was it was almost like deer in the headlights. Like, why are you asking me that? Because he's not gonna read the blurb on the back of your book. He's not gonna read a paragraph. He's asking you in one sentence.

And you know what else he's he's measuring? You know what else he's measuring is how how you would be personally to work with.

Yes.

Were did you have to prepare? Did you do your homework? Did you try to understand what was expected of you? Yes. There are nerves, but, you know, you most likely, you wouldn't go into a job interview of a job you really wanted just, like, off the cuff, not prepared.

Right. And if you did, it would be the last time you ever did it. It's not like I haven't done you know, I'm pretty off the cuff person.

Right.

I know when I've done, like, done it wrong. Like, okay. And now why would he hire me? Or why why would he get my book? Why would he

buy my book? Thing was, do you have a working title for your book?

Oh.

Because that says a lot. And so

have titles though? That's okay.

One of sitting yeah. They're sitting along the wall, and it's like I'm Can you tell him my book is and she ran across the street and it's a who, can never get to the other side of the street because she's so paralyzed by fear from the love of her blah blah blah. And they're like And two of them are sitting together and she's like, should I use that title? Should I use and she's like, okay. Now I've got a title.

So, I mean, there's all these little things you don't think about that are very important, especially when you get in if you have an opportunity to get in front of an agent, practice. Sit down and really practice what you want him to know. The other thing he asked too was, well, what is your author blurb gonna say? If I have a bio on the and he was actually saying, on the back of the book at the bottom, there is, you know, a few sentences about the author. What would that say about you?

And again, it was like, I I've been writing for a long time, and I love and it's like so this goes back to

No. He wants to hear, like, I'll start my day out with raw eggs in my blender. You know, something weird. Like, whatever. Look look up the bio or, you know, something personality.

One one writer that said, I have been a librarian for thirty four years. I've written 14 manuscripts. I have blah blah blah. And that's what he wanted to hear. What because, again, if he's going to work with you or they're gonna represent you, who are you?

Yeah. And

that goes back to what we talk about all the time with the core values is if you can't tell someone who you are, why you write the books that you write, what is important to you, and what are those themes, then you're not ready to market because you don't know what you're saying.

Because that is part of your marketing. So I listened to I listened to another oh, gosh. I was gonna say their podcast name, but I can't actually remember what it is. And I don't think it's unusual for people to write a book and then actually go for the big ones. Like, I wanna be on Good Morning America.

If you don't if you can't tell your best friend what your book is about and, again, I will tell you, it is hard. I think it's the worst thing in the world to be, like, you know, sitting at the dinner table and somebody turned to me and be like, what's the next book you're writing about about? You're like, golly. I mean, you know, so you at least with the conference, you have time to to, prepare. You know?

But it is something that we should constantly be asking ourselves, constantly be practicing because that is actually marketing. Can you talk about yourself? Can you talk about your so I

the story before the sale because you're telling people, you're giving the information, you're showing your brand, you're showing what you do, how you do it. It's not selling a book. It's prepping for the sale.

Yeah. And,

you know, that's true.

And if you only have to look to Nike for that. Right? They're not actually Oh, yes.

Let's do it because yes.

This is

my favorite.

Just do it.

Just do it. They're not saying don't buy buy my tennis shoes. No. They're saying just do it. What does that mean to you?

What does that mean? And then they show you in commercial after commercial people just doing it, and it can be walking, running, whatever it is, Pilates. They're wearing what Nike sells, but Nike is not saying you gotta have these tennis shoes. No. It's about you.

It's about you

They don't even tell the specs of the new tennis shoe.

No. No. They just because and but that brand, one thing to to recognize about Nike is that that brand did not happen overnight.

Right.

It takes time. And when you are looking at a brand like Nike versus a brand of Cat Caldwell, you don't have a thousand people who are working on, you know, branding across every channel that you're on, making sure everything's consistent, looking at the psychology of the color and the words and all of that. So as a writer, psychology of the color and the words and all of that. So as a writer, you have to be the one to figure out what is your brand. And I've had authors say to me, I don't need a brand.

Well, it's not like you need a logo per se, but how are you perceived by readers? What are what is when you're out, what's your persona? Who are you? What do you say? What do you talk about?

What is your messaging? And if you can't understand what you're saying, why you're saying it, does it make any sense that a reader would? And if you say something different every time you talk to someone, which is something that Kat and I were talking about before, you're not consistent. You're all over the place. You're not actually showing who you are as a writer.

And, Tad Hargraves, who is marketing for hippies, and he's very, very good. I was reading his newsletter. He said he was talking about the same thing, understanding internally who you are so that you can actually talk to the correct people and not put a bunch of doing all the things and putting up personas and and doing things that feel icky to you because you're trying to sell. And he used an example, a case study of a woman who said, I'm someone different every time I talk to a different person. And so I call that the chameleon effect.

And I have friends that do that, because you're afraid to not fit in. Hers came from the fact that she is an adult now. She's a writer, but she grew up in a military family and she moved every so many months. And every time she went to a new school, she had to be somebody different to fit in. And when you are trying to be an adult now and write authentically, you're getting all of that messaging from when you grew up and we're not therapists.

So, you know, you have to take care of whatever issues you have and we all do. So we're not throwing shade on it, but just believe me. But the thing is, it's like you have to recognize I'm I am performing and performing is the wrong word. I am trying to still make everyone like me, make everyone think I'm great. You know, all of these things.

And it's like, you know what? You gotta push through that junk and figure out who are you? You're probably absolutely lovely. You're introverted. You're acting out of fear because if people don't like me, they're not gonna buy my books.

Well, it's really not about that. It's about what are you writing? How do you write it? Why? Mhmm.

And there is an audience for your book, but you have to treat it as if it's a priority. I'm not saying you have to, you know, stop working and and write, but you have to understand. Do you want to actually be a full time writer? Do you want to sell books? If you do, it's a business, and you have to set the priority that my goal is to sell books.

And to do that, I have to build an audience. I have to market, but I have to do it the right way. I have to do what fits for me, not what fits for Cat Caldwell or JK Rowling or anyone else, but it has to be me because people can see through the BS.

I think and what's interesting is you can take Freda McFadden, who no one knew who she was. She's like, Betty, brain surgeon. Like, no one knew like, that was huge news. But interestingly enough so you can have a pen name. You can be a very private person, and you can still authentically market your book to the readers who are just buzzing to get your book.

If you if you think about in this day and age of constant opinion giving and we know everyone everywhere, what I don't even think that that is authentic half the time. I think a lot of times people are just putting on an online persona. So we're not even saying that you have to be constantly talking about yourself and give an opinion on everything. Like, that's not actually authentic. To me, as a eighties kid, like, that's not very authentic.

No. It's like you understand the boundaries that this is my private life. This is what I'm doing. Your marketing, though, like you said, it's really inner. Like, inner who am I as a writer and what do I Yeah.

Write. And then at that point, you know and who do I write it for? It doesn't really matter to me if the wrong people don't buy my book. Like, the people who I know are not gonna read it. Stephen King, readers, the fans are not gonna read my book.

Why would I bother marketing to them? Why are you trying to be something for everyone? And this is why you are told all the time your book is not for everyone because it's not. It it doesn't it doesn't even if it's a memoir, it's not. It's not for everyone.

But you have to, yeah, you have to have those boundaries. And we mostly want to, really dig into this topic and really be a little maybe brutally honest. Is that a good word? Is that a good way to say it?

Truth with compassion. We have to take the gloves off a little bit because you you guys, it is not easy to write. Mm-mm. And for most writers, that's the easier part than the marketing. And but you have to have the marketing, and and that's just that's the bottom line.

And the thing is you have to you have to do marketing in a way that fits for you. Can't say that enough. It has to fit for you and you have to be aware of what is your goal, how are you tracking that, and what are you saying, and are you saying it to the right people?

Yeah.

So Yeah. And it's not it's a skill, you guys. It is something that you learn how to do, and you do it with your

own personality. Learning. So one of the learning. Yes. One of the things that we we can go back to RWA, which you went to, and you get a little bit of a pass because you're going as a marketing person, and you didn't go as a as a writers.

But I'm gonna kind of get on the writers here because I also tried out, we'll say in air quotes, two romance book fairs, and I probably won't be going. I I do have a commitment to one in 2027, but after that, I'm I might not do that anymore. Because here's the question, for the romance writers that went to RWA unprepared for their pitch. Right? Are you spending too much money in a place that you're you either don't understand, are not prepared for, which I think is probably the big one, or in the wrong space, which is probably another big one, honestly.

Are writers spending too much money on that magic? Like, well, maybe if I go there. Well, maybe if I do this. Well, maybe if

I If I have more stickers or if I have more bookmarks, which we all love swag, it's great, but it's not the reason that you sell books.

Oh, that's harsh. Yeah. I

mean, I you know? You might get more people

at your table, but did you sell

a book? Yeah. But here's the thing. When you get more people at your table, what are you talking to them about?

Do you know how to sell your book?

Do you know how to talk about your book? Yeah. Do you know how to say, you know, if you like x y z, this book is about okay. So I'm I'm reading right now The Lost Apothecary and for our book club. And it's not a romance.

It's whatever. But, anyway, it is a it is a book that appeals to people who like history, are into, like, little kind of witchy things. It's got some mystery in it. It's got, you know, generational women with power and and how they access that power and show that power. So if somebody comes to your table and you've got a 100 stickers and they're picking through the stickers and they're saying in their mind, I don't know who this person is.

I just love this sticker. It's really cute. Are you actually able to stay safe for them? Hey, so why do you like that sticker? What about that?

Mhmm.

And do you know what my book is about?

Yeah.

Or what do you think of this cover? Or, you know, and I I went to several tables where, the writers were absolutely prepared.

Mhmm.

And there was one in particular. She had a series of three books based on Peter Pan, and they were romantacy. And she went through and said, so this one started with the blah blah blah, and then this one, and then the and this one. And the cover art let me tell you about the cover. I mean, she was talking and when I looked around, because I had been drawn to the, you know, the bookmarks and stuff that she had on her table, there was like five or six of us standing there listening to her talk.

And guess what? They bought the books.

Yeah.

Yeah. They bought the books.

They bought the books, and they didn't buy the candle. So I and I actually have nothing wrong. I have nothing against that. But I went to

what that is because people aren't gonna understand if you say they didn't buy the candle.

So I went to these two romance book fairs. You know, and and I will freely admit always a little bit in the back of your head. You think, well, if this has the right audience, then it will probably be worth let me tell you. You have to pay for your table space. K?

You have to pay for your travel. You have to pay for your eating while you're there, whatever. You know? But there were so many people. The romance genre, I think, has gotten out of control.

They have candles. They have bracelets. They have drawn artwork that you can purchase. You they have journals. They have keychains.

They have and don't get me wrong. I had bookmarks that I've had for forever, but, you know, you buy them in bulk and then, you know, you keep you keep giving them out. I'm not against that. And this time, I did have, like, little key chains, and I had a little fun game that people could play. So I'm not against it.

What I'm against is I walked around. There were people who had, I mean, beautifully printed off first chapters. Like, remember what I told you? I was like, maybe I'll print off the first chapter on, like, a piece of paper. You know?

Like, if you, you know, if you want to read it. This person had it, like, bound like a little tiny mini book. I know. I've looked. I have printed things.

I have I've done all this stuff for other people. That's not cheap. That is probably with glossy color, That's probably 5 to $6 per booklet. Like, perfect bound.

You

know? Here's the thing that gets me I mean, I could go on and on. Velvet covers. Beautiful things. Like, I was my first reaction was envious.

Like, oh my gosh. I could do this, and I could do that. And it's so beautiful. And, like, look at that. And I was like and then I watched, and I saw very few people purchase any of the stuff.

By the end of the conference, people were giving things out for free because I don't wanna go home with it, they would say. Yeah. That feels generous at first, but to me, it says, I don't we don't actually know. The majority of us don't actually know what we're doing, and we think we get this idea. I get ideas all the time, and we don't know if it's gonna work or not, but we'll launch into it.

We'll pay for it. We'll do the thing. We'll have the candle. We'll do this. And then and then the desperation sort of sets in.

I and I'm I'm being very harsh on us because I watch people buy bracelets and not books. I watch but so my question to myself and if that person if you want to I mean, whatever. Everyone has free will. But have you ever run the numbers? Are you losing money?

My fear is that most

people don't

have money. Because Mhmm. These conferences, to have a table cost at minimum $100. I saw one that wanted $300 for a table.

That's a nice table. Better have, like, you know, quartz on top of it or something.

And here's the thing too. As I've started paying more attention, because before this, I had done, like, local crafts. Those, you can get a table for $40. Okay? So we're talking, like, book fairs.

This one some I must have signed up for their their, like, announcement news letter, you know. So this is gonna happen in 2027. Here's how much the table costs, a $175. And we are, we have 500 tickets that we will be selling. Okay, everyone.

If they are inviting a 100 authors and they expect 500 guests, if every guest were to buy a book, just one book, they have to choose out of the 100 people to buy a book from. Right? If they buy in here, what is the reality? How many books do you buy when you go to a book fair? We all have a budget.

We cannot buy a $100. That's not possible.

I have a limit of three. I only buy three books.

Right. You also have to take it home. You have like, here's the reality of how you look through the numbers. On top of that, you've made all these things, all this swag. If it works for you, that's fine.

But do you know if it works? So that is my, you know, my question.

The research too. And so Kat and I had this this conversation when she went to a book fair earlier this year. It did not pan out for her, and I had to ask her some hard questions. I said, okay. So who's gonna be there?

Well, I'm not sure. Is it all one genre? I don't think so. Why don't you have a list of the people who are gonna be there and where you're being situated? And that's gonna be a different time you're gonna keep it to your table.

And here here's the the real reality of it. So you so then you ask yourself the question, is it worth doing this? And I have to say, sometimes you have to go out on a limb and try it. You do?

Yes. You do. But you have to promote you have to promote it, and that's the thing.

You can't you can't you can't rely on that.

Say, oh, you can't show up at a book fair that you've done nothing to prepare for. You haven't, you know, done something regionally as far as, you know, letting people know on your social, in your newsletter, asking people to share. If you know writers who are in that area, contacting them and saying, I'm gonna be, you know, in Richmond or whatever. Could you share this? Because this is a really big because you cannot rely on the person who's putting the book fair on to do all the promotion for you.

They're promoting for themselves. Now you might be in a list of authors. It's very easy to get lost in that list of authors unless you are doing something.

That is a really good point, though, because I think a lot of times we sign up for these things thinking, oh, I don't have to do the marketing. They're gonna bring in the people. Right? So and I think that's at the work. That doesn't it really doesn't it doesn't I'm not sure it ever works, but, you know, but I think that that goes right into the same, any online book promotion.

So if you think about, like, a in person book fair, kind of the same as, like, these written word book, you know, Crave books, these stuff your Kindles. How much do you actually know about the audience of these promotions? How much do you know about the other authors? How much do they line up with your readership? I know that this is a lot of questions, and I'm saying this because, you know, I'm the first one to raise my hand and be like, oh, okay.

I'll be a part of that. You know? It's only $20. It's only $15. Let me tell you that adds up really quickly, and I'm being a lot harsher on myself because I'm running numbers a lot more.

But I was part of a stuff your Kindle where it wasn't until we got into a little private group that I go, oh, yeah. None of these people like, probably 80% of their readers were not my readers. Okay. Well, now my time is wrapped up, and for no one needs something that I said I would do that doesn't line up with my readership. And guess what?

Nobody probably yeah. I'm pretty sure.

So it it so that we're gonna go back because we talked about this, how to how to make better decisions about what you're doing and actually in the business sense saying this book conference is gonna cost me, you know, travel, time, books I have to buy to to bring there, the cost of the fair, spending the night, eating food, whatever. So $600

What

do I, what am I going to get out of that? What am I going to get out of that? And do I want to spend $600 there or do I want to spend $600

On a book book?

Something else. Yeah. You know? So those are the things you have to ask yourself, but you also have to look at and this is this is the thing, the opportunity. Okay.

So if you're going to a book fair, I wonder how many authors from that book fair actually investigated indie published I mean, indie bookstores in that area and actually went to them and said, hey. I'm gonna be in the city. Any chance I can hang out at your store, sell some books, talk to you about, you know, do a presentation about my book or about being a book coach or whatever it is that you do because I bet you're not many people did.

I bet you zeroed it.

Yeah. And so there is lost opportunity. There is lost opportunity because you're not thinking you're focusing on this one thing when if you're gonna get more bang for your buck, if you're gonna be spending the night, what other marketing things can you do to reach readers?

Mhmm.

And and again, connections. Because if you decide you're gonna go back to that fair next year, guess what? You already introduced yourself to several indie bookstore owners. They know who you are. You're coming back.

You talk to them. You send an email just to refresh and keep, you know, like nurturing that contact for more opportunity.

Right. So Or even if they said no, you contact them again. And maybe you you did it too late this time. Yeah. You know, people have calendars.

Okay. Next year, I'm gonna do it. But it's it's something to keep in mind every single time. I actually did in Roanoke. I went to their one indie bookstore that but, like, after the fact, and then I went, like, I went in.

But he

he said you could sell books on consignment there. Right? And he was like, hey. Hey. Welcome in

Yep.

Kinda thing.

And you go and you introduce yourself and just you know? So, yes, anything between in person and I'm I really I'm still I still really think that in person is a better stepping stone and will make you grow faster more than anything. But I do, like but I I I'm being very brutally honest about myself and all these different fairs that we're doing. I think a lot of these fairs, especially in the romance, are for a mini vacation for authors. And if that is the true if that's what you wanna do, that's fine.

That's kind of like this the bonus is that maybe somebody will buy my book, but it's really about networking with other authors. That's that's okay. Like, whatever as long as you know what you're doing because I, and I have been there. I mean, this time, I brought one box of books because I was like, I know exactly what we're doing here. You know?

But I have been the person with stars in my eyes bringing five boxes of books. And a very, you know, veteran, in person author told me once, I bring 10% of the the number of books is 10% of how many tickets they've sold. And I was like, oh, that's rough. Right? You think Yeah.

Five books? I'm bringing five books? But that really is the brutal reality of it. And then I watched people bring in five boxes. And I have to say, like, the the the voice in the back of your head says, well, what if I sell out?

Well, here's the thing. If you sell out, you actually like, it looks good that you sold out. Yeah. And now people are

a QR code there so they can buy it online.

But the chances of selling

it are

Yeah. Not super high. If you especially if you haven't done any marketing. But I think but, again, this goes into in person. I think you should still try, but I think a cheaper version of that is going to your library, seeing what your library is doing.

A lot of libraries have some sort of local author thing. Unfortunately, every year around here, I it's my grand they have it on my grandmother's birthday, and she's earning a 100 this year. And I'm like, I can't I can't not go see my grandma.

The priority has to be your grandma.

I'm like, oh, dang it every time. But lots of libraries say it's a lot cheaper. Sometimes it's free. Right? Try try a farmer's market, actually.

Get together with a couple of local authors. See, I I have seen them out there. Try the bookstores, like Becky says. You'd be surprised how many indie bookstores are out there. But, Becky, in order to do that properly, you need actually your marketing package to get there, which means you need to, on one piece of paper, have your author bio, what your book is about, why people would want it, what why it's

interesting. Who is your audience so that they know how to, you know, because if remember, if you're going into an indie bookstore or you're going to approach somebody to help promote you or your book, Make it as easy for them as possible.

Right.

Say, here's the whole thing. Look. Everything you need is right here. I'm I'm available to you to answer any questions you have. You know, it's at your convenience.

So I think the thing is, as is always the case, if you do a good job, if you're conscientious about it, if you are helpful, they'll help you back. And I think that local farmers markets and local craft fairs and all of those kind of things are a really good place to start because one, you get a table and you're face to face and you start talking with people. And I know an author that she does this religiously and that's how she sells her books. And people start looking for her at these fairs. You're gonna be at Riverfest.

You're gonna be at this thing. Whatever. And those tables are relatively inexpensive. You, you know, you're in within 50 miles of your home, so it's easy in, easy out. And you start getting used to talking to people, taking pictures with them, asking them for emails, telling them about I mean, it's a really good way to start because

Ask your husband or boyfriend or best friend

assistant or your or your friend, you know, somebody else that's going I think everybody has a friend that's not afraid to step out in the eye and go, hey. Come over here. She needs her rider. You wanna meet her? I have a couple of friends like that, and that's who you want.

You want that person that's just gonna be like,

I have a friend like that.

That's me. Yeah. So even though it's hard for me, I do it because I know how important it is. But it's you need to practice. Yeah.

So I love the whole starting locally

Yeah.

Because I'm not a huge social media person. And I I get, discouraged by what I see on social media. And I know we need it for visibility, and I'm not saying don't do it. Everybody has to do what they're comfortable with. But when I am face to face with someone, I love it when I do this.

What do you do? I'm a book coach. And they're like, wow. Some a girl I met the other day, she goes, wow. A book coach.

She goes, what is that exactly?

Sounds exciting though. I'm so excited.

She's like, wow, what is that again? And so, you know, that opened up this whole conversation with her. And you know, what's really interesting is I find this almost a 100% of the time. Oh, well, my friend, blah blah blah, wants to write a book. I know somebody who wants to write.

And I talked to someone. She's like, I have talked to six writers and told them that you are a book coach, and they're all trying to get their manuscripts together. And I'm like, damn. That was like two conversations with you. And this is amazing.

Like, you could have 50, you know, social media posts, and everyone's just we're just scrolling. Oh, cool. Becky's a book coach. Awesome. Whatever.

Keep scrolling. Keep scrolling. I'm going to What

is that? And y'all even though I've been doing this for the majority of my life, it is still something that is not always easy. I'm like Kat. I can have a friend of mine said, Becky, you have 47 ideas before most people have a cup of coffee in the morning. And I do.

I that's the way my mind works. But making those ideas come to life and making them a practical step towards marketing for my business, that's the hard part. And so don't be adding to your future.

Doesn't Yeah. Is probably not needed to work. Work. Sometimes my favorite ideas are the ones that you're like, oh, you know.

Sorry, Kat. I don't think that's gonna work.

So it's good to have somebody to bounce these ideas off of. It's good to try. You know? You can try things. It's good to learn.

We're gonna come right back to that. You're you should always be learning. Yes. I'm nine years into this. I and I think I think you actually have more ego in the beginning.

I finished a book. I know stuff. I feel like I'm actually now I have to learn all the other stuff. But just learning, you you might be pleasantly surprised. So you have to try stuff.

Right? You have to go out. You have to talk to you have to talk to people. You have to tell them about your book. You have to practice.

Say, hey, hon. Say, you

have to consider it a business. It's a business.

What?

And writers hate to hear that. It's going to be a business

If you want people yes. If you wanna sell it.

Sell books, if that's your end game, and that's the question, what do you want to do with this book?

Right.

What is the path you wanna take? If you haven't determined that Right. That should probably be one of the first things that you go back and look at. You need the basics before you start marketing. What's your end game?

Who are you and why are you doing what you're doing? Who is your real, real ideal reader? Not the 100 bazillion people that read romance or whatever your genre is. You have to really sit down and think about this stuff because if you don't,

Mhmm.

Nine times out of 10, you're wasting your time trying to market something that you can't even answer the question.

There's a keyword right there. You're wasting your time, and I think you're wasting your money. I think we're wasting

all of it.

Yeah. I don't I don't think anyone's not you're you're at at bare minimum, you paid for a cover, for a formatter or the software to format it. You paid, hopefully, somebody to edit your book, please. I've like, I will not give up on that. Give up your Starbucks coffee for seven months and pay someone to edit your book.

Do not rely on your ARC readers to edit your book. That is what has conflated their ego. But whatever.

And so and that's part of the business. Do you understand if you're gonna be an indie author, if you're not going the traditional route, do you understand the steps you need to take and what you need to do to put out a great book? Because even if you get the marketing thing down, which I hope you will, if the book isn't edited properly, if it doesn't read well, if it is not going from chapter to chapter in a way that makes the reader wanna keep going, you're not ready to to be putting this thing on

the right. Know why you might not have any review? And, like, let me tell you. Reviews are difficult, but we have to ask ourselves the hard questions. You're either not putting it in front of people.

You didn't do your book launch properly. So yeah. And raise my hand on the bended series. Like, I did Kickstarter. Like, lots of mistakes made.

Or it's not a professional book enough for people. Like, they don't wanna hurt your feelings. Like, so you have to you have to ask yourself these things. Are you not you're either not working it, you're not working hard enough to get people out there. And that yes.

I understand. It's rough. I gave away 2,000 books through a BookBub. So people on BookBub who want to read 2,000 cop ebook copies of NextLove still waiting for because in the end in the end, we don't value things as much that we get for free than what we pay for. Right?

So there's that. But but I think the hard truth of a lot of these might be if you don't have more, you know, more than 10 reviews a couple months in and you've given away a lot, your book might not be professionally you gotta ask yourself hard questions, please.

Yes. And you know what? The thing is, it's lovely for your family to read it, but I would discourage you from listening to your family talk about your book because they're not gonna hurt your feelings. They're not gonna be honest with you. And this is a tough industry.

I don't want to discourage anybody. But you know what? You've got to put work into it. And I the way I am, I wanna make sure that what I am putting out there is the best that it can be. And so the only way that you can prepare for that is to do your research and understand what are these costs that are gonna come down the pipeline as you're finishing your book.

Start saving for them unless you have the automatic income to do it, which I wish every writer in the world had this disposable income at their fingertips to be able to say, I'm gonna get great cover. I'm gonna get a manuscript evaluation. I'm gonna have a coach. I'm going to, you know, do whatever I need to do for marketing, and it's all gonna be great. But the truth of it is most of us don't.

We struggle to do the thing that we are drawn to do from a creative standpoint. We've got to write this story. But you owe it to yourself to really be practical about what do I need to do if I want someone to read this. Your creativity does not go away. It's not in any way, shape, or form making you less of a writer because you're being practical about the business part of this.

Yeah. Everyone that you admire who is successful looks at it as a as a business. Like, this I I'm anyone who I know painters. I know other artists. We can all like, at some point, you get the stars out of your eyes and say, I just want people to read my book.

No. Actually, you don't. You want people to pay for your book because quite frankly, you think that you deserve to be paid for the work that you did and you do. So the very there is a very small percentage of writers who are okay with writing and spending all that time and money on a book and never having it be sold. The Yeah.

I don't actually know anyone who I believe when they say them. So it is a business. And the the thing

is business. And it's okay to say you want to make money.

Golly. At least break even. Like, give me a break. It is okay.

You buy products. You don't expect people to give you groceries for free.

Nike's not giving you the shoes for free. You don't expect to go

to the movies for free? No. So your book has value. Your good, well thought of, well written book has value, and it should be something that people buy if that's the way you want it to be.

And here's the thing too.

If you don't care, that's a whole different thing.

But if you don't treat it like it has value, because you go away.

Nobody else will.

Nobody else will. So here is the the this is the sort of conundrum in the brain of a creative. Right? The creative wants on at least on social media. I just want everyone to experience my art, and I want to be and we wanna be, like, very, like, kumbaya about it.

But the fact is, it sounds like you're not valuing your art because Stephen King doesn't give his books away for free. He values his art.

But I'm gonna put myself out on a limb here, and I'll probably get blow back from this, but that's okay. If you are afraid to ask people to pay for what you have done, That's a that's a thing internally. You're like, I'm not I'm not valuable enough. I can't ask someone to pay $15 for this book that I spent three years writing, and that cost me $5,000 to produce. Yeah.

And I'm afraid to say, yes. This book is worth 15 this work is worth $21. You need to buy this book after you've got an audience. You can't really do that right off the bat if you don't have people that are prepared for the book. But we feel like, I mean, I'm a crafter, so I make wreaths.

I do decorations. I decorate people's Christmas trees, and and it's a lot of money when you have to put those things into something you're gonna sell. Mhmm. And I still go, I know it took me three hours to make that wreath. Oh my God.

I can't sell it for $110 Yes. You freaking can. And you know what? People will buy it.

Yeah.

And so even though I my heart, like, shrinks up and I cringe and I'm like, but you know what, Becky? You made this. This came from you. This was money you put into this. You know where you want it to go.

You know it can give somebody pleasure to have this piece of whatever it is that I made.

It's gonna last. And here's the

thing It's gonna last. Sell it

for 20. My first thought is, did you buy it from Timu? Like, how are you selling it? Like, maybe not even actually in words. That's just our human we have to, from the time we were living in caves, like, make these quick judgments on what has value in front of us.

So you're not even thinking about it, but you are making these reactions. And so if you are a vendor who's giving things away for free, your book and here and acting as though it doesn't have value, I don't know. People hand me a book for free that I didn't really ask for, and it's not gonna go at the top of my TBR list. It just not just because you gave it to me for free. People even ask me to read books, and I like, but I have all these other things to do.

If it hasn't grabbed my attention and I'm not your audience, I'll probably get around to it. I'll I'll at least try it, but it probably won't be for six months. You know? So these are things and I say this because these are things that I am forcing myself constantly to reevaluate. And we all like, I still like, oh, I made a a promise to myself.

I'm not gonna pay for any more promotions, any more stuff, your Kindle's nothing nothing. I'm not doing anything for six months. And even the other day, I was like, oh, look at that one. Like, okay.

It's just like buying programs that you never use. It's the same thing. Yeah. Thinking that there is some quick fix, some quick answer when you haven't done the basic work. That's the thing.

You have to have the basic work done or you're not gonna be able to talk to people about what you write, who you are. And, again, who you are does not mean what you ate for breakfast. It doesn't mean, you know, I'm not gonna tell you what color my my stylist puts on my hair. I don't even know what it is anymore. But, anyway, I mean, those are not the things that people wanna know.

It's your writing. Why are you writing what you're writing? What do you know about yourself? What are your boundaries? How are you making decisions?

And if you can't start at those core things, it's very hard to do the others and do them well and authentically and not feel ick.

Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Because you don't know. So when difficult.

We're in September, and I think one of our, we'll we'll have two more. We're gonna have a live at some point. But our our biggest, like, thing that we want to hit home with people is this is a business. It it we are going into fourth quarter. It's probably I mean, please don't bring a if you're not even done editing and have a cover, you probably shouldn't bring a book out right now.

Like, if you're bringing a book out, it should have already pretty much been done. But, hey, that's a different conversation for a different day. Instead of getting wrapped up in all of the the promotions and the things that you can just spend a little bit of money on to get your book into this Christmas and Black Friday thing, Becky, like, what should we be doing instead? Like, let's do a hard reset. Let's think look at ourselves in the mirror.

Okay. I'm gonna treat this like a business. Mhmm. And you just hit on something. You have to have the foundation.

So, like, what you have to build the fans before the fun extras as you told me.

Yes. And we skip that part because we, for some reason, as writers, don't think that we deserve that. But I'm pretty blunt.

I I think it's that. And I think that we hope that magically that stuff your Kindle will bring the fans to us without us working too hard. And yeah.

And, you know, we all this is a weird time, and so everybody's very money conscious. So make good decisions about where you're spending your money to market if you even have to because you don't have to.

But you need to understand until you understand what it is. And I, that's for somebody who went through her numbers last year and said, even when I was trying to be very good so now I'm writing it down instead of, like, treating it more and more like a business. Like, actually writing books. Right? Like, in not books, but, like, accounting books, you know, putting it down, writing that $5, writing that $20.

You don't have to actually spend the money. And I we're going to challenge that you actually find ways to do this without spending money.

Spending money. I mean, it's just like, I'm not gonna go try out for a Broadway play. Why not? Well, hey.

If you haven't learned how to sing. I have

to make sure my voice has been practiced. I have to be practicing. I have to know what my range is. I have to know what I do on stage, how I present myself. I have to understand that I'm really afraid of being in front of people.

Then you say it again.

Yep. Is that really a good thing for me to do if I don't like to sing in front of people just because I sing in the shower? Which I don't.

I don't either. Who does that?

I don't know. I because I think a lot in the shower. But anyway, so with you have to really step back and go, what am I doing? Mhmm. Who am I doing it for?

Where is my comfort level? Where am I not comfortable? Where is that fear making me do things? Because if I don't do it like everybody else, I'm not gonna be successful when actually the opposite is true.

And please understand that everyone else, they we like, here I'm just gonna pull this number out of my any the deep inner inner doubt of me, 90% of indie authors are doing stuff without knowing why they're doing it. I I really believe that, and I put myself in that for many, many years. So stop following them. Stop doing what they're doing because you think it's going to work. Sit down like Becky says.

Figure out your core values, what you want to present to the world through your books, who you are, and then your marketing. Like and that that is part of it. But stop following everyone else. It's not gonna work.

And stop the time you're spending doing things that are not gonna be successful and I think if you're honest with yourself, you know darn well. I'm just I'm throwing this out there because I I feel like I have to do something.

Right.

That time would be so much better spent

Mhmm.

Even though it's hard doing some inward work and really having a place to start. Mhmm. Because we skip that that whole foundational stuff and go straight to doing the things. Mhmm. But you don't know what things you need to be doing or what's gonna make a successful marketing plan for you because you you skipped over the whole important stuff, which is you.

You and your reader. And if you can't identify that, then you are just throwing spaghetti at the wall. I haven't said that in a couple of months. I just wanted to say it. And it's not gonna work.

And sometimes with money. So you are going to be start to be inundated with Black Friday things and Christmas things. And I more and more, there is a there there's nothing wrong with having a business around authors and helping authors. But it is up to you, and it is your responsibility to decide if that thing is going to actually help you and if you have a strategy behind it and a plan to implement. When you are in if you've decided to be part of a promotion, are you sending out your newsletter?

Are you telling other people about it? Are you getting other authors who have your same readership to be part of it? Are you doing the work behind it, or are you just, like Becky said, throwing it there and hoping it works?

And here's the here's the thing. I just when you were talking about that, if you decide that's what you're gonna do for this last quarter, do that. Only that. Put your energy into every piece of it that creates more opportunity for this promotion just like Kat was saying. Newsletters, newsletter swaps, talking to other authors, cross promotion, telling everybody, you know, really, really focus on that one thing.

Know where you started. And when the promotion is ended

What happened?

Look at it. It's scary. But look at it and go, okay. I spent forty five hours

Mhmm.

And I did this whole list of things.

Was it worth it? And I

only sold two books. Why? Or and the really great thing is I spent forty five hours. I have now five new people in my network. I have opportunities to talk to people in person, and I sold 10 books.

Yeah. Yay. Yay. But if you don't write it down and if you don't track it, you don't know. So that is part of being being treating this like a business.

So we for the for to to wrap up this show, we you know, this is a lot of hard truths. So if anyone's still listening, they haven't shown us out. Pick one thing for a quarter one and go all in. I'm sure Becky will say, first, do, like, your inner work. That is absolutely there's gonna be somebody out there who's gonna refuse to still do that.

But, you know, but, really, really, as a business

But if you have a focus for the fourth quarter, really go all in on it.

And go all in.

We wanna we wanna talk about the challenge we're giving each other.

Yeah. But we haven't even chosen. Okay. You've chosen yours, but you gave me like a so we are challenging each other to do something marketing wise. And Becky is a coach, and, you know, I'm a writer, so they're they're they have to be a little different.

But something that is that we haven't done, that challenges us, that might scare us a little bit, and that doesn't take any money. I don't think any of these take money.

No. And for me, part of it is that in this new coaching program that I have, the writer's pulse, I need to be more specific in what it does Mhmm. For each writer who is a part of the coaching group. And so my challenge for I was going to because I I love, obviously, I love talking to writers. I like being in front of people.

I'm better on a one on one connection than I am through social media. But social media obviously does give you visibility, and I had an idea. And Kat said, no. No. No.

Here's what I want you to do. She's like, I have a challenge for you. And I'm like, oh god. Okay.

What were you gonna do? You were gonna have a laugh.

I was gonna do an ask me anything for an hour once a week in for the month of October. Mhmm.

And, you

know, just have an open Zoom meeting. People can come in, ask me any questions they want, talk back and forth, and, give them some information about what I can do to help them promote their books

Mhmm.

And their writing and themselves. So Kat goes, no. No. No. Here's here's what I'm challenging you to do.

And make sure I've got this right, Kat. So correct me if I'm wrong. Kat has challenged me to answer three marketing questions a week from October 1 until the end of October and put it on Instagram. So I have to answer the questions. I have to film myself, and I have to put it out there.

Mhmm.

And live. It'll be yeah. I'll be talking, and I'm already starting to sweat. Doesn't have to be live.

You can you can record it because we're gonna put your Instagram info in the but it's Yeah. And this It's gonna be

it's not gonna be a picture of me at a desk going, hi.

So send all your marketing questions to Becky the book to us on Instagram?

Yes. So if you are still listening, go to, info@Beckythebookcoach.com. Send me a question

Yes, please.

And I will answer it, please. So that's what I'm gonna be doing. So I'm going to, let people know I'm gonna start doing that. So for the next two weeks, you'll be seeing some Instagram posts from me setting this up, and hopefully, people will have questions to ask. If not, I've got a whole slew of questions that have already been asked.

But I would like to hear for some hear from some new people because, you know, I wanna meet you. And so that's gonna be my challenge. And when we meet in October for our next Craft and Connect, I will let you know how it's going.

I'm going to

look at my numbers starting this and see what happens to my Instagram by the end of it. And, yeah. I know.

So exciting.

It is so exciting. I'm like, what am I gonna wear? I need to get my eyebrows done because I don't have any. I got to draw them on. No.

See, that's the stupid stuff that comes to this front of my mind.

I'm I'm I'm a little vain. I'd I'd like to

I I don't have to to be about

to put my makeup on.

You need to see who you'd be coaching with. You need to understand how I approach things and how I approach my clients, my writers, the people that I come to love because I end up loving everybody I work with.

They must Some writers need to understand why they need marketing anyway. You know? So, like Yes. So I

think this

is gonna be really helpful to people. So everyone needs to check the show notes. It's Becky the book coach. Right? Becky the book coach is

Info at Becky the book coach so you can send me something. And then I will have a challenge for Kat. We're trying to narrow it down because I think I give her eight things to do.

Yeah. I'm looking at all the way.

Something that's not social media related. She's not gonna be on social media. She's gonna put her behind out in the population and figure out some things. So we will talk about that cat cats challenge next time.

I have to And

then she's gonna do that for the month of November. Yeah. She has to choose from the the aid that I gave her. But, she's gonna do that for November. So I'm October.

She's November. And then we will do something live, and we will wrap up in December and start getting ready for 2027

Yeah.

Which is crazy. But it's a good way to start because you guys need to really start thinking about how you're gonna roll out in January, and hit the ground running. So, hopefully, we can answer some questions for you or you can send us you're welcome to send us emails if you have questions about any of the things we talk about. Is that okay, Kat, with you?

Yeah. I just I get them anyways. Yes.

Yeah. So yeah. So we're we want to be part of your team, kinda. Actually, we do.

Absolutely. Yep. So we I'm look at quarter four as practice round for 2027. Yep. Because, honestly, like, just if you're gonna choose one, choose one, but it might be too late already if you don't really under if if you're starting from scratch.

Right? So

So if that's the case,

then spend

this quarter spend this quarter figuring out what fits, what what can work for you, what you need, what you're doing, and then hit that January really hard so that you have a full twelve months in front of you to promote yourself and your book and grow your audience. Yeah. Because it doesn't happen overnight.

It doesn't. But you know what? It gets really fun once you are more the more confident you're in it, the more fun it is. So, really, like, even if you're sweating a little bit, It's like, actually, it just the more you do something, the more confident you are, the easier it is, the more fun it is. So just, you know, keep looking at that.

It'll come back.

We're here to help. All all writers, we want to help. So Yeah.

So we'll be back in October for an update on Becky and, what challenge I am doing, and we'll be going probably through just media kits and the idea of, like, you know, checking your auth author bio, things like that. All these little things that are kind of behind the scenes, we'll just keep pushing you guys on marketing. And if you guys And y'all

can follow me on Instagram and laugh at me. I'm all for that.

You can laugh at me. We're gonna we're gonna couple of questions. So check the show notes below to follow Becky, to send her, questions, and, yeah, and we'll see you guys next month.

Alright. Bye, everybody. Thank you.

Bye.