Ep 328 From Pantser to Plotter as a Cozy Mystery Writer with Naomi Kuttner

Welcome to Pencils and Lipstick. This is a podcast for indie authors. I'm Cat Caldwell, novelist, short story writer, and book coach. Here on Pencils and Lipstick, we're obsessed with all things story, and it is my goal to bring you the writing tips that you need to make your novel come to life. Welcome back to Pencils and Lipstick.

This is episode 328 of the podcast. And today, I have an interview for you with Naomi Kuttner. Naomi is a cozy mystery writer from New Zealand who sets her books in New Zealand. So it's absolutely wonderful to talk to somebody who who is doing the cozy mystery thing, but not British. So you guys are gonna wanna check out her books.

You can find out more about them at naomikutner.com. Definitely check the spelling. It's n a o m I k u t t n e r. We are going to talk about book covers and just Naomi's writing journey, but you're, you should go to her website, check out her book cover. You're going to understand more like why book covers should be that the way, the way that they are.

She's also doing a Kickstarter. So if you like Kickstarters, you should go over there and check it out. I love Kickstarter. I think that it's a great way to find some really fun gifts. And since Christmas is coming up, you should definitely check out Naomi's, Kickstarter there.

You can get a beautiful special edition book, and who doesn't want special edition book? So please share the episode with your friend who loves cozy mystery. That would help her. It would help this show. You know that it's just me running this.

I have actually prerecorded this, intro and interview because I am on the other side of the world right now, but you guys are the ones that keep it going. Sharing it, definitely helps. Writing reviews definitely helps all of it. So I think you're really gonna love this episode. I especially loved, Naomi's accent because I love accents and languages, and it's just made me honestly want to get out to New Zealand.

It's just so far away. But if you guys want to be on the show or know somebody who should be on the show, let me know. You can message me on my socials. You can reply to any newsletter that I send out. And if you guys are following along on my socials where I have all those reels and posts going up, talking about my books, Let me know if you're seeing them.

Let me know if you have other ideas on how you talk about your books. I would love for this to become sort of a collaboration where we can sort of, you know, brainstorm together on different ways that we can let people know about our books. I do, challenge you guys to try it. It is not as easy as you think it is, but it's actually not as hard as you think it is. So go over and check out my Instagram or TikTok and you'll see what I'm talking about.

Give me a thumbs up over there if, if you liked it or give me some pointers if you weren't, you know, vibing with it. So let's get into the interview, with Naomi Kuttner. Okay, everyone. We are back. I am back.

I'm Kat Caldwell, and I am with Naomi Kuttner. And she is a writer from New Zealand, so this is very fun. She has a wonderful accent. I think we're all like... Everywhere we're from, we consider everyone else to have an accent.

Right? But... Hey, Naomi. How are you doing today?

I guess. Good to talk to you. I'm well. Thank you.

Did you get any surfing in lately? Have your kids allowed you to?

I I live near one of the worst, surf beaches in the whole Auckland West Coast. Oh, no. It's terrible. It's where I learned. I must have really, really wanted to learn.

So it has actually been surprisingly good a couple of weeks ago, and I wanted to get out and have a surf. This is one of these big, long, like, miles... Kilometers long beach that it just washes through, and it's usually far too big for actual good waves. So

Okay. So what makes it bad is no waves, I guess. Oh, yeah.

Very good. Too too much waves. Nothing up

there. Too many waves.

No good point breaks or rocky points or anything like that. It's just a giant mess. My It's just a...

I'm so sorry.

A giant mess.

Yes. I actually, like... I love the ocean, but I really hate sharks.

So I'm like...

So then it was nerve

Zealand is is good for that, and yet we don't have a lot of sharks at all in Australia. Australia is the place for sharks. Yeah. What do they survive? Australia.

They have everything that, like, eats you.

Have everything. They just... I don't know. I

They must be really resilient people. Like, they have spiders that will kill you. Like

They have all the poisonous things. They have these little cute little octopus... Octopi that if you step on them, you basically die. It's like Oh. Everything everything is out for you.

Oh my gosh.

Okay. Crocodiles. So... No. That's all in Australia.

New Zealand does pretty good, actually.

I... So you'd, like, that was probably, like, their best kept secret. They're like, we're gonna go to New Zealand. There is nothing that will eat us or kill us over here. Nobody else come.

Alright. So enough about about eating eating us. No more crocodiles. So you... When did you start writing?

Because you have... I... There's a couple different things that I wanna ask you, but Yeah. How did you get into writing first?

Well, it's actually kind of a cool story because I didn't... I've always loved writing as a kid. I loved reading and being a bookworm all my life. But being an actual author just seemed really difficult, and I didn't... Even when the game kinda changed, which I did sort of two thousand and ten ish, I didn't really know about it because I wasn't in that space.

And I I feel... Felt like I needed permission from somebody to actually write a novel. And then this author called Tamsyn Muir, who wrote a book, a trilogy, which the first book was Giddy in the Ninth, I read it. I loved it. It was a big breakout success.

And then I saw in her bio that she has lived part of her life in my hometown. She doesn't anymore. She'd moved to The UK. Okay. That kind of, like, clicked something in my head, and I was like, ah, if someone from my hometown can write an actual novel, maybe I can.

And I emailed her and asked, do you have any advice for getting into writing? And, amazingly, like, she must have been super busy. She had, you know, all these interviews all over the show. She wrote back this mini essay saying, this is what I suggest you do. That was just It's

so cool.

It was so cool. She was super cool. So I did. That was 2019, and I wrote some short stories. And then one of the short stories, I started writing it, and then it just didn't finish.

It just kept going. I was like, I I don't know what happened next, but I I wanna find out. Yeah. And that turned into the first novel of an urban fantasy trilogy.

That's so cool.

First novel I wrote. And then I I published it on Amazon and and, yeah.

And you haven't stopped literally.

I haven't stopped. Exactly.

Was that the Arcane Houses Of London? Is that the first one?

It was the River of Night. Actually, look. Okay.

The River

of Night.... Of London. There's a prequel, but I wrote that after Oh, okay. After I finished the trilogy.

Okay. And is it urban fantasy? Is it You? Or is it

Yeah. It's very much You, urban fantasy. Did you England.

Did you write, did you read You before, or did it just sort of happen to be that category?

I love urban fantasy. Like, I I read a lot of stuff. Mysteries, high fantasy, epic fantasy, sci fi, all sorts. But urban fantasy, I just really enjoyed. And so I wanted to write that.

And it was definitely... I I don't know if you're familiar with the saying it was the first pancake. So the first pancake is always a little bit of a tester. If you're cooking pancakes, you usually eat the first pancake yourself. It's like, it doesn't look quite right.

But, yeah, but I did it. I published it. And, you know, people seem to like it. It didn't take off particularly, but it was a first pancake. So...

And I finished it.

So it was a

good good thing.

Yes. I think... And there's something about the first one or the the one that's, like, supposed to be a short story, but it just gets you, you know, where you're just... You're not really, like, struggling with it. It just sort of...

Like, it falls into place. You know? I don't know. Sometimes things can... It's okay to work hard for something too, but it's just so lovely when you're writing it.

And you're like, well, it just won't end, and let's just see, and there's no pressure. Literally, there's... Then then there's pressure later when you're like, oh, I have to finish it, you know, the whole the whole series. Like, wrap it up, then there's a little more pressure. But, so did you publish it, indie author?

Like, indie published?

Yeah. The the process of finding an agent and, getting a publisher just seemed like way too long.

And then it was

full of rejection. I was like, I don't need to be rejected.

I agree.

I'll I'll just I'll just publish it. That's fine by me. Exactly. See what see what happens. Exactly.

Yeah. If you if you... When you publish your first book, you're like, but maybe it'll really be awesome. And it's like, no. But, anyway, it was a first pancake.

Yeah. Awesome. So when when you're publishing in new, New Zealand... Because I know Amazon has, like, all of these different pages that are, like, specific to the countries, but then there's, like, crossover. I don't really know how how it works.

Sometimes reviews crossover. Sometimes they don't. Who who knows? You have to, like, run ads on every separate page or... But you don't really...

But, like, who knows what they're doing? So is there any sort of, like, ranking so... Just for New Zealand, or do you, like, literally get pushed into every English speaking category, like Well from America, I guess.

The answer is that New Zealand is so small and so far away from everything that we don't actually have an Amazon Oh, you do? We don't. There is no. They don't. They're like, it's too far.

Like, a lot of... You know, world maps? Yeah. The white white... A lot of times, they put the wisest logo over New Zealand because we end up in the bottom right hand corner, and they're just like, well, there's a logo.

It's like, where's New Zealand? It's like, oh,

can't be bothered. Forgets about you guys. It's so

slippery. Yes. So there's Amazon Australia. But I haven't... I think I set up Amazon, like, years and years before this when I was in this...

I was traveling in The States. And so I just had an amazon.com account, so I just used that. And most of my readers are in The States. So

Okay. Yeah. I just wonder because you never... I... I've actually heard some English writers have, like, separate, book covers and, like, blurbs and things for their, like, English versus American, which I find too much work.

Too much work. Yeah.

Like, we're all speaking the same language. Can we just, like, can I just put it here?

How would they know? Like, there's some sort of secret sauce to know that I don't know. Writers prefer this over. I just like, ugh. It's just too I

don't know. Although, I saw an American book talker complain about... So do you guys... Do you use quotation marks, or do you use an em dash for dialogue?

Oh, we use we use British English because we were an English colony. So we use quotation marks.

You use quotation marks?

That some some... Like, when you look at translations, like

Yes. They use the em dash.

They use the em dash. Yeah.

Yeah. And somebody was complaining about it, and I was like, that's probably a foreign, like, a foreign bug. Not everyone's American.

Yeah. I know. It's the same with the spelling or...

Yeah. They're like, you spell color wrong.

Well, no. It's just different different ways of doing the the same thing. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah.

So for your urban fantasy, is it set in an urban setting in New Zealand, or is that what you were thinking, or is it a whole new world?

I set it in England. I spent some time in England. But, also, it was kind of... I I think it's possibly like a New Zealand thing where where, like, again, this little island in the back end of nowhere. And I'm like, no one would want to read an urban fantasy set there.

So I set it in England. But then when I did my cozy mysteries, I just really wanted to set it in New Zealand even Yeah. Some people told me that, no. You should set it somewhere that people have actually heard of. I was like, no.

I want it to be New Zealand. And I think that's actually been a real strength because, a lot of cozy mysteries is kind of like a travelogue. Like, you get to go to that place and that little town and experience that particular culture. Yeah. And sometimes people have never been there.

Like, is it the number one ladies protective agency? It's a great cozy mystery series that came out quite a few years ago, and it's set in Botswana. I've never been to Botswana, and I would love to one day, but I still really enjoyed it because it was so different. There was so many things that you're like, wow, that's really different.

Yeah. I think that's awesome.

Be there. Yeah.

Well, and then you avoid being like, well, that would never happen in England or something. You know? You're like, well, this... You know, you're just set it where you're familiar. Right?

So we can So much information. Yeah. I mean, I read a book by a British author set in the North of, like like, New England of America. And the way that she... There were...

It wasn't that big of a deal, but there were a couple things where you're like, that's not how that would work.

I'm not sure.

Like, it doesn't it doesn't Yeah. Ruin the story or anything. But when a reader's like, yeah. That's not how we do that. No.

You know? It's just like The slightly embarrassing thing is that when I wrote the first book, I got a couple of details wrong. Like Did

you do it for London?

The placement... No. No. For for for New Zealand. Oh, no.

I got the place... I got the placement's uniform color wrong, which I should know, but I just... I don't know. I just sort of blanked.

Just didn't think again.

That's like... It was like, I got them black instead of blue. And then, I said an an opossum instead of opossum. And I didn't know they're two different... Totally different species.

Like, an opossum, I think, is a American thing, whereas a possum is a... It's a little furry animal that, is Australian, but it came to New Zealand as this really... It's it's a real pest. And I got this wonderful Goodreads review from a reader saying, this is all AI. This person has never been this has never been to New Zealand one star.

And I was like, well gosh.

Everyone has to stop doing that. That's... I mean, honestly, I'm an American, and I thought opossum was just, like, a mispronunciation.

So I just I didn't... Yeah. I didn't actually know. I looked it up. I was like, oh, yeah.

They're two different animals. Oops. See.

Oh my gosh.

That's so crazy. Like, it was kinda funny. I was like, yeah. I mean, she's right, but it's like the two little details.

She could've just emailed you. They're like, oh my gosh. Yeah. It's so crazy. That's like when people give a one star because Amazon delivered it wrong.

You know? It's like, well, not my fault. Like, what did you think about the story though? Like... So you mentioned that you write cozy mystery, and that's something that I I wanna chat about because you went from urban fantasy to cozy mystery.

That's... Seems like quite the jump. Did it feel like a jump?

Well, what happened was that I had kids. So I had kids. So my twins are now... Yeah. It's kind of a...

It's kind of Big deal.

Big big life change.

Yeah. And so I wrote the last Evan's fantasy while I was pregnant and published it, like, I don't know, a month before I was here. And I was just, like, publish and forget about it because I'm not gonna be doing anything for the next however long. Yeah. And then when, like, my twins were born and they were two weeks old, And I was just like, I don't know, in crazy land because they hadn't slept.

I was getting woken up all the time.

Yes.

And I checked up a copy of the Thursday Murder Club Mhmm. At, like, 3AM. I was just reading it on my phone while trying to nurse a child back to sleep. And I was like, you know, this is exactly what I need in my life right now, like a little bit of murder because I just... I need some way to some kind of outlet for all this angst, all this

all this Somebody needs to die. It needs to not be me.

Yeah. And it needs to not be me, not the screaming babies. Like, it's just someone someone out there. Yes. Exactly.

So... Yeah. After, like, a few days of reading this through the night at different points and kind of not really remembering much of it, I thought, you know what? I feel like I would like to write a cozy mystery. I felt like I wanted to write something that was based in New Zealand because Yeah.

I was just having a big kind of, oh, I'll never ever get out and see the world ever again at the moment. Yes. It's gonna be stuck in my my room forever. And, I was just...

Everyone who has ever nursed a child is like, yes. This is this is exactly what.

Yeah. And then it just kinda grew from there. I was writing it by hand in a... Just on a notepad at start off

because you were like, the twins are three weeks old. So clearly, this is a great time to start writing. A great time to start. They will leave me alone. It will be fine.

It'll be totally fine. And it took a year to write the first book.

That's incredible that it only took a year. Oh my gosh. You have double the babies on your hands.

That's double... But it was kinda... Like, it was what kept me from going

Going great.

Like... Yeah. It wasn't like I was doing this despite the kids. I was doing it because of them. They they are lovely, and I love them pretty much.

But Of course. But they take up

all the time.

Yeah. So I needed something to do for me. Yeah. I was using my my brain as such as it was. To be honest, I can't remember a lot of the writing process.

It was kind of a blur, but I needed something to do that would just take me away to to just Sure. Lovely, quiet, little, cozy village where everyone has lots of time to go and sit and chat and have coffee and solve murders.

And solve murders.

And solve murders. And bodies just falling around the place. All around.

I love it. Like, the retired assassin's guide to country gardening. Like, I love that title. It's so good. Is that the first one that you wrote, the one that you wrote while they were babies?

Yeah. Yeah. That was the one.

That is so so so... But when you're writing urban fantasy, like, there are certain rules to that. Right? There's a world building. There's usually a villain.

You know? And I guess mystery has a villain too, but how much did you have to, like, switch on and off, or or did it come pretty naturally to try to write a mystery? And, like... And the readers have to not know who did it. Right?

Like, isn't that the point of mystery? Is it

The first one, I did watch... I watched quite a lot of Monk, the TV show during the first

That was funny.

It was good. And I also... I've read a fair bit of mystery, like The Agatha Christie, Sherlock Holmes. Yeah. And and the famous five is what it started with as a kid, which actually...

When I I picked that one the other day, I was like, actually, it's not bad for a mystery. It's pretty good. You know? It's like five kids and the Timmy the dog. But, yeah, I think the first one is more of a how done it, which, is like you're pretty sure who the villain is, but the challenge is figuring out how they did it and proving that they were the one who did it, which is kind of the simplest way to do a mystery.

Okay.

And then from there, you have the the who done it where you have a a cast of this many suspects. And if you wanna, you know, have a twist, which mysteries are pretty famous for, You can have somebody who is not in that pool of suspects but is, you know, kind of central to the story who it turns out at the end, they worked out. Okay. It was this person who did it. Right.

Or it could be one of the cast of suspects, but the kind of joy is in figuring out the final clue that proves definitely that they did it and nobody else could.

Right.

And so, yeah, there's different kind of levels of difficulty. And then, I guess... I don't know, some of the more difficult ones are things like, when you have timeline skips or unreliable narrator, which I think Agatha Christie, I could be wrong, but I think she might have been the person who first innovated that, which was... Caused quite a stir. She was

she was such an intelligent woman. You know? Like, all of these writers that went before us were... Are just so smart. Sometimes I I fear that if I had gone before them, I...

Then nothing would have changed. It would have been like, no. She didn't invent anything. But when you're... So you read mysteries, so I guess you kinda knew, like...

Did did you find it difficult to figure out? Like, did you know who was gonna do it, or did you, like, figure it out as you wrote and then had to, like, go back? Because then you have to leave, like, a trail. Like, you can't just be out of nowhere. Right?

Like, the reader has to sort of, like, be able to go backwards and be like, oh, that's that's right.

I need

to know that.

Ideally, when it's the big reveal, the reader is like, oh, of course. I get it. Not Yeah. I don't get it. What what is them?

Yeah. So this should be enough light in, but the the answer for me is that I'm naturally, more of a pantser than a plotter. Yeah. And mysteries is very much... It's so much better to be a plotter.

So the first one, I kind of just I I wrote it in a sleep deprived state, and then I was like, okay. I really need to put more clues in there.

Mystery to you because you don't

even need them to read it. It's like it's all a mystery. It's one big mystery.

It's one big mystery. Where did this book come from? I don't know. I don't know.

But what you ideally wanna do is before you start, you figure out what the murderer did. Because often with the mystery, the inciting incident in the first act or the first quarter is the first murder.

Okay.

But the actual story started, I don't know, a few months or even a few years in the past. Right. So if you wanna make it easier on yourself, you first need to figure out the villain's timeline. So what they did, why they did it.

Why they did it. That makes sense. So that you're not kind of writing them blind of, like because you never want that villain that's evil for evil's sake. Right? You...

They have different reason.

Yeah. And then as you're writing the story, you have, like, two different... Really three different timelines. You've got the sleuth timeline as they uncover the clues and the red herrings. Okay.

You've got the villain's timeline for what they did before. And then at some point, if it's like... If you're gonna go into the cat and mouse kind of thing, then the villain discovers that the sleuth or the sleuths are after them, and then they start doing things to either, like, get rid of the evidence or misdirect to somebody else or dump the sleep stuff, which is more of a thriller thing than a cozy mystery, but, you know, you can kind of, like, push it down like the sleep is in some danger at some point. So

Sure.

Because the villain doesn't wanna get caught. So

So do you write from the point of view of both of them? Like, do you go into the point of view, or is it only the detective?

I just do the detective. And these books, it's a little bit unusual because they have three main point of view characters, and they all have very different strengths. Yeah. But I don't do the villain's point of view because then... Unless you're really sneaky with what happens, you still know who it is.

Yeah. Yeah. Thriller. A thriller thing you kind of... With the thriller, you're kind of with the hero as the villain is trying to get them, and the hero is running away.

And then, hopefully, they turn back and get the villain. So you can have the villain's thing because it's not so much of a who done it. Okay. But with a mystery, if you have the villain, it could be like a prologue to say, oh, this person, here's how that the murder most horrible happened. And then they kind of...

Unless it's something like, I guess, the talented mister Ripley, which is definitely not a cozy mystery. No. But in that book, no. It's nothing cozy. But you kind of, yeah, kind of, really, which is

Yeah. I guess so.

On the darker side of things.

Yeah. That... That's definitely not cozy. That's... That that story really kinda creeped me out.

But I think it's because it... Especially because it was the first, like, from the, like, inside the head, you know, story that I'd ever read. Like, those those do kind of... Those kind of... I guess they're thrillers more than anything.

Right?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like, probably a, like, a logical accelerate

your own heart rate, and you're just sort of like, oh my gosh. How can there be this kind of person in the world? But cozy is, like, I guess they're supposed to, like, more, like, excite your mystery solving mind more than, like, making you hold your breath and be afraid. Right? Or not?

Yeah. Yeah. They are... I mean, they're about... You know, if you...

If you're writing a classical cozy mystery, at the beginning, there's a murder, and there might be maybe one or two more along the way. Okay. It's, like, witnesses get popped up or anything. But usually, there's not a high body count. But then at the end, there should be justice restored.

So the person who done it gets sent away or dies, tragically. Not really. Yeah. Nobody nobody. Sorry.

No. It's like, oh, and then... And and the sleeves are solving the mystery, and there's no super grizzly murder. There's no... She's just really clean.

There's no, expletives or, like, steamy things

or Right.

Children and animals are safe. Very important. If you if you bump off an animal in a cozy mystery, your readers will be out for your blood. So hopefully... Oh, yes.

Yep.

Oh goodness. They they

get they get very exercised about the cat or the dog. It's like they just don't don't do it. So

That's interesting. I wonder if none of them are country folk. Because, anyway Well That's an

interesting like their pets. They like

their pets.

I mean... Yeah. But, presumably, you can have roast beef, and no one would be upset. But if it's a pet, then

no. That's so funny. But, I mean, those are things that you have to know. Right? Because, like, maybe the...

I don't know. Maybe it just comes out as you're writing that the the villain kills the cat with some poison or something. But if you don't know that they're gonna come after you as re... I mean, it's just not worth doing if if your readers are gonna be Yeah.

I mean, if you wanna have a lot of bad readers, you can do that. I guess so. That's that's your goal. You can certainly

my marketing plan to make everyone annoy everyone. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Maybe, like, that that is the disruption that we'll do, like Agatha Christie with her, like, different, narrators. I don't think it will work as well, though. So I think I think it's better to follow the the rules. Did you know these rules as you were writing? Like, were you researching this as you were writing it?

Kind of did. Like, I like, I've I've read a lot of the classical cozy... Not not classical murder mysteries. Like, the classics like Dorothy Sayers, Agatha Christie. Sherlock Holmes is kind of one of the original ones, and then some of the newer ones.

So I kind of knew that, but, also, it was my preference because cozy cozy readers want... So what the name. They want a little bit of excitement, but not too much. They don't wanna be kept awake worrying that something dreadful is gonna happen, which is what psychological thrillers, right, readers, they love it. They're like, I stayed up till 3AM, and it just just wrecked me, and I'm traumatized now.

That's what that's what they're after. They're like, this twist just laid me. The cozy mysteries were like, I don't want that. I Okay. Watched the news, and now I feel stressed.

So I wanna read a cozy mystery and just relax. And that was very much where I was at too. I was like, I get woken up three or four times a night with this huge jolt of adrenaline, and I don't know if I'm gonna be kept up for the next five minutes or the next hour and a half. I I don't need any extra excitement. I want something that will just kind of bring the blood pressure down and Yeah.

And fill it... Fill out. So I was very much in that when I was writing it as well. Right.

So it worked it worked with your your sense of being at the time as you were writing it. But it... That... It's an... Those are interesting differences to think of, like, when you're thinking of your ideal reader.

Because, like, the sense of justice has to be served at the end of these. It's kind of like romance. If you don't have a happy ending, your your your readers will come after you. Right? Like, you have to know these things, and then it's good to know them so that if that's not what comes out of you, then you gotta pivot and go to something else.

Right? Like, maybe psychological thrill. I do have a friend that was writing what she thought was women's fiction, and I was like, this is psychological thriller for sure. Like, you need to... But it's good to know that.

Right?

Oh, totally. Yeah. Because otherwise, you'll get some rather upset reviews.

They'll be like, when

you're talking about writing reviews. Yeah.

Yes. So when you wrote this, were you... When you finished it, did you realize, like, you had another series on your hand? Or was it gonna be just one and done or just a, you know, hobby? Or were you surprised that you finished?

I was, and I... I've launched it with, like, no fancy. I think I put it on book sirens and hidden gems. They're two just arc review sites. Yeah.

And and then I just published it, and and that was it. I didn't do anything else. And it's it's done really well. And I Good. I did wanna and I did wanna write a few more.

So I was really enjoying that world, and I was enjoying the characters. And, writing book three right now, and it might be sort of a four to six book series, but I didn't know. Really? Think I was helped by the fact that cozy mystery at the moment is is having a great time as a genre. Like, there are a lot of cozy mystery readers.

They tend to be voracious. Like, they will read a book or two a week, which to me is things like just the height of luxury. We'd love to do that. That would really be nice. It's probably not gonna happen for a year.

Well,

your kids right now, they're they're, like, running around and driving you crazy at this point. Right? Like, you can't leave them alone for

very long. Like No. To be fair, I do read a lot of books to them. Like Yes. We read

like, the books.

Yes. I've come to kind of appreciate the structure of a well written children's book.

Children's book. Yes.

Things to be learned there, especially, yeah, like doctor Seuss and that kind of thing.

Oh, yes.

Yes. Yeah. But, yeah, I think it just, yeah, it kinda fit within the genre pretty well, and, yeah, seems to have done done pretty well. So I think, hopefully, if things carry on like this, I should be able to just carry on as a a full time writer, which is

That's that's amazing.

Right. So,

I mean, you wrote you wrote... You've... You're going to publish three in less than, what, four years. Right?

Yeah. It's been about a book a year.

That's amazing.

Yeah. I

mean, so when you write, how... Where... How? How?

Well, officially, like, there are only writers who write, like, 12 books a year, which is mind blowing to me. So that's

just crazy. The ones that I know don't have toddlers running around. Yeah. So there... There's that.

Well, they go to day care three days a week.

Okay. So that's three.

So that's, like, what... That's eighteen hours. And, generally, I mean, I can fly... I find out I can only write four hours of decent, concentrated time in a day anyway.

Right.

So that's, like, three mornings, and then I'll do some sort of admin marketing stuff for the rest of the time if I'm not just asleep.

Yeah.

And then I've got them... They're still napping, so I usually can manage to get them to sleep at the same time in the middle of the day, which is maybe an hour, an hour and a half. And it was one of those things, like, when you have lots of time, you kind of... It's not... You can spend it all.

Like, you gotta spend the time anyway. And when you have very little time, you're like, okay. I actually have to write now. I cannot procrastinate and look at YouTube even though I want to because Yeah. My time will be gone, and then kids will wake up and they'll be hungry.

So I think it's a case of that. Just not... You just make the time and really make it count.

That is true, though. Yeah. And I do wonder, like, when... Back when my kids were little, I would, like, spend that little bit of time writing. And then, actually, I would...

Like, the rest of the time we were at the park or whatever, my brain would be thinking and still in that moment. And now that I have a little more time, I feel like I should just keep writing, you know, but it's almost like your brain needs... Still needs that rest to think. You know? Yeah.

That's very true. Yeah. It's never it's never perfect, is it?

No. Nothing. It isn't. It's like... I always, like, catch myself thinking, oh, future me.

We have lots of time and energy and focus and be able to do all this just perfectly. And I'm like, actually, no future me. I have just different things that I, you know, are challenging to overcome to actually get them right.

They'll they'll be in two different sports.

Yeah. Exactly. I'll be there, like, scribbling away on, like, in a freezing, like, rugby pitch or something. He's gonna be like howling through it. I mean Go

get the ball. Yay. Okay. I gotta keep ready. I mean...

And this is what this is what happens. The bug just catches us. Right? And you... Your brain just won't shut off, and so you have to you have to write it down.

You have to keep going. But I wanted to ask you, how was your experience with hidden gems and book sirens? I have heard of them. And I know a lot of romance writers use them, but I didn't know that they were multigenre.

Yeah. I think the main thing is that, if your book is definitely within a certain genre Mhmm. Then you'll tend to do pretty well because people who like that genre will pick up your book and be like, okay. Yeah. This is this is definitely a a psychological thriller, not women's fiction or whatever.

So they'll Right. Right. Yeah. I think if you have, like, a sort of cross genre or experimental book, probably not such a good idea because people request an ARC and then give you a a two star review or something, which is kind of kind of annoying.

So so it goes out to people you don't know? It... It's just whoever Yeah.

Yeah. Okay. You pay... When I did it, it was, like, $2 a book, something like that. And they...

You paid for maybe 2 doll... $40, and 20 people can request art. You don't even know who they are, but you can look at them and say... See that, they read lots of books in these genres, and they've given them pretty decent reviews. Okay.

And so you basically get people when you publish your book who have read your book and will review it. They kind of... Often, it's just sort of an honest system. They feel... They often feel on the bound to review your book because they got an art copy, and then, hopefully, they liked it.

And we'll Yeah. Give you a good view. Because for a new book, reviews are what make other people wanna give it a go as well.

Yeah. Yeah. To differentiate us from the millions of other books put out there all the time.

Millions. Let me see.

They're really going off of your book cover and your book blurb, so you really have to have those really good Yeah. In order to get the right reader, I guess. So so you don't really have control at all over who, who reads it? Oh, you can approve people.

Like, you'll get request, and then you can go have a look at their profile, see what else they've read and reviewed, and then go, yes. Go for it or no. You won't start every single day.

He will like it.

Rather, you didn't one start live. So Are those people happy? Like I know. I don't know. I get something out of it, maybe.

Maybe. Yeah.

It's just so funny to me because almost every book I pick up, I get something out of it. It... Like, I love, you know, just reading. And sometimes I just gave up on, like, whatever. I think books are good, you know, unless it's, like, really poorly written, and then I just DNF it and move on.

Even even, like, fancy Nancy kids' books, I love... Like, they're so... There's something good about every single story. I don't know. You gotta wonder about some people.

So I... I'm just gonna write these down for people who are listening. I'll put the links in the show notes, hidden gems. I have heard of them in Book Sirens. I think Book Sirens might be, pretty popular in the romance world, but I never...

And they sound pretty affordable if you're looking for an easier art, like, more than going out there and finding review readers yourself. It can be a lot. It doesn't sound like you have time for that.

No. No. I mean, now I have, beta readers. So I started an email list and just from the back matter in my book, and that's slowly grown. Wonderful.

Beta readers are great. I have wonderful beta readers. They... I I... They're fantastic.

They, I use a, I don't know what you call it, an app, a platform called StoryOrigin. Mhmm. It just makes the beta reading process pretty good so... For people to leave feedback at each chapter. So you get their thoughts as you go along, and then they pick up typos or inaccuracies.

And so, like, because quite a lot of people like the first book, then they were very happy to basically read the second book. Yeah. And and I've had people who are gonna, basically read the third book as well. So it's kind of like a flywheel once you have a good series starter. You can...

It makes it easier with the next books, hopefully, as long as they're still good to Yeah. Make that process of getting them out to out to the world easier.

That sounds wonderful, especially if you're busy with kids and the rest of life. And, you know, sometimes we write stuff, weirdly enough. And nobody really believes me that aren't writers. I'm like, no. I really don't remember what I wrote last week.

So it is possible that there's, like, a repeat. Like, I need that. I need an editor or somebody to read it and be like, you already said that. Yeah. Okay.

Good. So do you put it out there while you're writing it, or do you put out the whole book when you're done?

Yeah.

Okay. Alright.

So the first half... I know there's some people who have, like, Patreon or do serialize.

I think that's crazy.

No way. Yeah. I just couldn't. I was like, you would start off being, like, one person, the suspect, and then that person disappears. And, like, no.

Forget everything you read before then. I've changed it all, and now it's this person. So it would be a a awful experience for readers. So I'd get the first draft, and I have a wonderful editor. And then once that's sort of in a sort of ship shape ship shape shape, instead of phrase, we're gonna go with it.

We're gonna go with it. We're gonna go with it. Ship shape shape. And then I put it out. Yeah.

And then I got Oh, okay. To my email list and said, who would like to beta read it? And, then the people who said yes, just go through and leave their comments at each chapter, which is quite good because, I mean, readers are the same. You might forget what happened in the first chapter by the time you finished it. But if you're leaving feedback as you go, then I'll get a general picture of what...

What's happening.

Right. Right. So even if there's sort of a question that you can be like, oh, yeah. I did. I do answer that in chapter 27 or be like, oh.

Yeah. Oh,

that's interesting.

Oh, actually. Yeah.

Yeah. Because even, like, our creators that are, like, reviewers, they'll read it and give a review at the end, but they won't necessarily remember... You know, they don't leave chapter by chapter feedback. Yeah. Every once in a while, you'll get that one person who will send you a whole long email, which is wonderful, but most of the time, they don't.

So that that sounds like a nice, nice way to do it. I do have story origin, but I'll have to look at that.

Yeah. It's a good service. And often, those beta readers, like, they are wonderful because they help you catch any plot holes. Or if they're confused about something, it's probably confusing everyone. But they often become your first reviewers too because they feel like...

They often feel like they have a stake in the success of this book. Yeah. And so they often go out and get it on on, publish... On launch day and review it. Yeah.

So you're building a a fan base right there. You said you're getting them from the back of your ebooks? So you have, like, a link for them to join your newsletter at the back there? See? This is why I told you guys to do this.

This is proof

that it works.

Exactly. Because then you... Like, beta readers are... Can be so helpful. And the best way to get them is the people who've read your book, enjoyed it enough to actually go and find your newsletter Right.

And get the free shot story. And then, yeah, they're action fans, so they know they know the series already. So, yeah, you should definitely... Readers listen listen to Kat. Get your email list going.

Yes. Get the email list going. I'm gonna be teaching that in in a summit, and somebody was like, really? And I was like, yes. Because it's Yes.

Really? Really? Really? And so did you write a short story that went along with the mysteries, or do you... And do you have, like, two separate email lists for the urban fantasy and the cozy mystery, or are you just working on

I just did one because it's a lot of thinkery, and I just... I've kind of, like, moved the urban fantasy into the backlist. And I'm just happy for it to do its thing, and I'm just focusing You're getting perfect. Yeah. We'll focus on what...

What's what's working the best.

Someday, you can merge urban fantasy and cozy mystery,

and they can meet each other. I don't know. And urban fantasy cozy

Oh, urban cozy Fashion. Just... I don't know.

One of those is probably a genre. It's

probably Probably.

I mean, it's paranormal mystery, and there's ghosts in it. So this one does have ghosts in it, so there is that. There's a little bit of that.

Interesting. But

there's a whole witch hunter mystery dragon vampire mystery. It happens.... Also. I do like it

that it's set in New Zealand because I think that the English cozy mystery writers are killing off literally everyone on that island. I mean, there are more murders on that island. Does it help? Do you think... Do you...

Like, do your readers ever say anything about liking the setting specifically or, like, the reviewers or anyone?

Yeah. They do. Because, either they haven't been to New Zealand, so it's kinda nice to get a window on on this, you know, little island, or or they might like to one day. And it's like Yeah. Or or they have been there, and they're like, oh, it just, like, brought me back to when I visited New Zealand back in whenever.

So it was like Right. Visiting. Yeah. And I don't know. There's a lot of things that are very...

You call it kiwi. It's our national bird. Very kiwi, very New Zealander that, yeah, it's just the same particular flavor, really. Yeah. The same way that if if you, wrote something about your hometown.

For me, it would be kind of exotic and interesting. I see. So Yes. Because this is so different.

Well, we do call ATM machines time machines in my state, which is bizarre

for everyone else. Time machine.

Yes. And it's it's spelled t y m e. And so when I left the state and I went as a young woman and went looking for a time machine, literally, everyone thought I was crazy. And it it took me, like, two days to figure out why. I was just, you know

a time machine.

Yes.

Nobody got a time machine.

Everyone back away from that lady. How do you how do you pronounce the small coastal town that it's set

in? Tikohe.

Tikohe. Okay. Alright. That's... I mean, it's little things like that.

Right? Like, it's really cool that... To be able to say... Do you have, like, a pronunciation guide or, like, a, like, a different, like, all the different, like Good. Words?

Because I I assume you guys have a lot of different words.

Yeah. We do. I mean, the the original people are the Maori. And so a lot of place names in New Zealand are Maori placemates. Tikko is is the Maori...

Two Maori words. I did actually make a pronunciation guide because for the audiobook reader Oh, yeah. And I was lucky enough to get a really good New Zealand audiobook narrator.

Oh, that's so cool.

This, he already knew how to do. But, yeah, I mean, I get... I do get reader emails saying, you made me look up these different

Yes. That's

good. Essentially New Zealand things. And I'm like, well, you are come. Yeah. You know, travel.

I'm a bit of research. It's good. Exactly.

We're learning. So one last question for you. Has this made you into a plotter? Because you said you had to... Like, you should know what has happened.

So I am a a plotter who still likes to change their mind and abandon the plot and and then come back to it and then go, damn it. I should have thought of that and go back into the weeds and kind of try try to, like, tidy things up. Yeah. So I'm a semi plotter. I'm...

I heard of people like, say, James Patterson who will just plot out an entire story, like, every beat, every scene, and then write it or now get someone else to write it. Yep. I just can't imagine. I've tried to do that. I'm a I'm a wannabe plotter, I guess.

Yes. It just doesn't work like that. But, certainly, having, like, at least some of the main step pieces. I think it's kind of like, in a movie when you see the trailer. Usually, they try to put all the cool stuff in the trailer.

And And if I have an idea, okay, this is gonna be about... That's like the... The book I'm currently write... Writing is about a amateur production of Macbeth, which is a wonderfully murder y play.

Yeah.

So there's gonna be, like, witches on stage, and there's gonna be all the different personalities of the actors clashing. And then someone's gonna die, of course. And so I sort of have an idea of the main set pieces and maybe a few of the main, like, character arc beats as well. Sure. Because that's another thing.

Like, in Cozy Mysteries, like, some of the really long series that I guess what you call archetypal characters who don't change, like Sherlock Holmes, Nikkyo Frodo. He doesn't change. But this one, the... Or Jack Richer just goes, like, rides in town.

Just kill everybody.

Just kill everyone and carry on.

Because of a dog.

Because of a dog. Yeah. Or John Wick. Yeah.

Oh, that's right. It's John Wick. Yeah. Yeah. But you're guy who changes?

Yeah. Yeah. So they have an arc. So it's Okay. How does the...

I guess that's also another challenging thing about a mystery is that you... If you're doing the character arc, you want the character arc and the mystery plot to be causally related. Like, you want... During the course of solving the mystery, the character learns something or develops a relationship or something so that the two are two separate things. They

Right.

They aren't really linked structurally so that if you took one away, the other one wouldn't work. And so makes sense. Yeah. There's a lot going on.

There is

a lot going on. Feel like it's all plot or all character. But that's... Yeah. I mean, that's the challenge.

And, you know, when you read the... It's it's the fun part, making it work. You know? It's like when you read one that really works, you're like, wow. That felt really satisfying.

Yeah.

And usually, because everything actually does link up together, and a character moment will happen because of a plot moment, which will happen because of another character moment. So it all kind of... This is interlinked with

Right. Right. Right. I think I think it's a a good thing to be kind of that halfway in between, especially as you write more and more books, like... And especially as the children get...

Occupy still a lot of space in our heads. Yes. You know, because you have to write something down, you know, and, like like, I have a problem now that I thought of something two days ago that I didn't write down, and now I have

to try to figure out...

Remember what it was. Right? So you have to, like, be writing things down, but then allowing yourself the freedom as the writer that when you're sitting down, sometimes your brain just starts clicking and you're like, oh, this is so much better. You know? But then to have a direction to write when you get time to sit down and write is also wonderful so that you're not just looking at the screen and very, very tempted to pick up your phone and scroll.

Right? Like, it's that delicate balance there, which I think is... Yeah. I don't understand the whole plotting 80 pages. That sounds very boring.

Like, why not just write it?

I don't know. It's part of the fun because you you are... It's like you're seeing them. The fuck happened. Yeah.

Or you're kind of acting it out in your head. And if you've already know what's gonna happen exactly, then it's like, well, I was... I don't know. It's a different way of doing things, but I I just haven't been able to... Doesn't work for me.

No. And that's the most important thing is to find what works for our brains. Right? So so I love I love talking with other authors and especially for listeners of, like, you don't have to do it how, like, that one course told you to do it. Right?

Like, it's better to figure out how your brain works and how you can still have fun writing. Right?

That is so important. Like, I know that if I'm having fun writing a book, if I'm enjoying it, then readers will have fun. Or if there's a really sad moment and I'm feeling really sad because it's really sad, then that emotion, I think, goes into the story.

Yeah.

And so it is a... It's kind of... It's almost like a performance in a way... In in a weird way between your brain and and the pages. There's something going on there.

It's like

Yes. Yes. Exactly. And that is just the fun part of our jobs. And the not fun part of our jobs is, you know, marketing.

So that's that's all of it. But where where can people find you? They... If they pick up a book, they can sign up for your newsletter at the back of the book. But can they, find you other places and sign up for your newsletter in other places?

Yes. So my website is just my name, naomikuttner.com. I was lucky enough to have an unusual name. Get on to it.

I mean, unusual and yet pronounceable and rememberable. You know? It's nice. It's nice. So we will have the link in the show notes.

It's Kuttner, k u t t n e r, but we will have the link in the show notes as we always do. And people can sign up for your newsletter on your website? Mhmm. Yeah. That is always the best way to do it.

And, actually, if you all don't have a website yet or you think... Like, Naomi's website is really cute. It's really, like, clean and easy to navigate. I'm always interested in other people's websites because, you know, sometimes we we, like, make it too much, and sometimes we don't put enough, but you have, like, just the right amount. So I encourage all of you guys to go and check out Naomi Kuttner.

You can find her on Amazon. Are your books wide, or are they on... Only on Amazon?

They're on Kindle Unlimited. So I can't put the ebooks anywhere, but they are on all the, like, Overdrive, library Right. Which you can do right now. Yeah. And I think the the bookbooks are on IngramSpark and, a bunch of other places.

Just through Draft2Digital, I published all the paperback books.

Right. Why? You can get the paperbacks everywhere. If you're on KU, you can read her books and then join her newsletter there. And if you want to, you can always ask for people's books from your library.

That's actually a wonderful way to help an author out. We love it. We really, really love

it. Libraries too.

Yes. Yeah. Somebody asked me. They're like, oh, that doesn't, hurt you. I was like, no.

They pay for a licensing fee, and it's great because other people read it. We love it. Yeah.

And and, you know, most writers grew up spending far too much time in libraries.

Yes. Yes.

It's like...

My tiny library didn't have enough books. You know? So it's wonderful that people have overdrive. Yes. Well, thank you so much, Naomi, for coming on and chatting to us about Thank you.

Writing mysteries and urban fantasy, and good luck with those twins.

Yes. Thank you very much, Kat. This has been great fun.