Ep 329 Writing When Life is Full with guest Jaime Bradley

Welcome to Pencils and Lipstick. This is a podcast for indie authors. I'm Cat Caldwell, novelist, short story writer, and book coach. Here on Pencils and Lipstick, we're obsessed with bold things story. And it is my goal to bring you the writing tips that you need to make your novel come to life.

Hello, everyone. Welcome to Pencils and Lipstick. I am Kat Caldwell and this is episode 329. And my guest today is Jamie Bradley, romance writer extraordinaire. Jamie and I have been sort of watching each other online for a few years.

She is absolutely hilarious to follow on Instagram. She seems like such a fun person. I wish that we didn't live so far away from each other. But, we finally got to meet quote unquote face to face, which was absolutely hilarious and so much fun and you are gonna have fun listening to her interview. If you don't know, she, writes the 3,000 reasons to...

The 3,000 reasons to stay, so like the reasons series, but 3,000 reasons to stay is, was like the first book that I saw of hers. It is so much fun to read. I highly recommend them. And then she has like a Christmas one coming out, like called wait or it is out. So if you are already in Christmas mode, I highly suggest that one as well, but you can check out her, socials and her website in the show notes below.

It's stick around to listen to her story because she has some pretty funny, instances of when she's writing and how she got her, her, stories and her ideas and all that. Of course, as usual, before we get into the interview, I want you guys to please, like subscribe, share, you know, whatever you do on the app that you are listening to. If you want to see us, laughing along, you can watch us on YouTube or you can join us over on Substack. You can watch us over there as well. Thank you to everyone on Substack who is, just supporting the show monetarily.

You know who you are. I really appreciate it. This is a one woman show, but, you know, everything takes something. Right? You gotta pay for things behind the scenes.

If you want to support the show, that's awesome. I would really appreciate it. When you are on Subsack, you actually get access to my short stories and the critiques that they get from the contest that I put them into. So you get a little, a little surprise there, as well as just my heartfelt thank you.

So we are going to

get into the show. I am actually officially back in Stateside. I will talk to you guys a little bit more about that, very soon, but this is prerecorded. I do want to notify you guys that I am going to be co hosting a writing retreat next year in April, April 18 through the twenty fifth. I am working with a former client of mine to make this really great writing retreat in Sardinia where she lives now.

It's going to be pretty reasonably priced, like, as far... It's gonna be under $2,300, which is amazing. That includes everything on the island of Sardinia. It does not include your flights because I don't know how to organize that for you. So everything from the moment you hit the island of Sardinia, like travel to the hotel, all the meals, all the activities that we do, the one on one coaching that you'll get with me, all of it, like even a glass of wine at dinner, it is all included.

So if you are interested in that, I suggest that you sign up for my newsletter. You will get more information and we're going to be having a live, like, question and answer on November 7 and introducing our Black Friday lowest price. So it's gonna be even lower than 2,300. And then from there, we'll we'll, describe, like, explain the payment, processes and like payment plans that you can also choose if you don't want to pay for it in one go. But if you are looking for a writing retreat next year in a beautiful, beautiful place, you know, you're gonna want to keep like Sardinia on the top of that list.

It's going to be amazing. And like I said, you're going to have, one on one access to me. It doesn't matter if you're writing fiction or nonfiction, we can really, get you writing and send you home with finished pages in hand and like a clear path of how to keep going once you get home. So that's amazing, in my opinion. So next week we'll be doing craft and connect.

So I'm excited about that. But without further ado, reminder and get on my writing newsletter so that you can find out more about the writing retreat, but let's get into the interview.

Okay. Okay. Hello, Jamie. Nice to see you in person. Good afternoon.

We've had a little few hiccups, but it's okay. We are going to record. So you are Jamie Bradley, fellow romance author. Can you give us a little, like, background of what kind of romance you write?

I mean, I write contemporary romance. I describe them as sort of spicy rom coms. There's a real heavy plot. There's a real character arc. There is on page, sex.

And I, you know, imagine, like, sort of the rom coms that you like to watch from the nineties, but

Yeah.

The modern

twist. Yes. It... Like, you bring in your your life expertise, which I'm... We're gonna talk about.

Like... So you have... It's open door, but how... This is so hard these days in our in our genre. What does it mean to be spicy?

Like, what do you think that even means for us?

It's hard because, of course, there are tons of bothers who are way spicier than me, but I am a lot... So, like, I I often describe it just based on, like, other authors. Like, if Katherine Center is over here where she maybe maybe mentions a kiss and, like, Tessa Bailey... I'm more worn the Tessa Bailey zone

where

getting a little more graphic detail in the... In what's happening in in the romantic scene. But, it's a... Well, for one thing, I often accidentally, on purpose, write slow burns. And so it's usually happening.

It's not like 10 scenes. It's four. You know what I mean? Yeah. And it's an important part of the story, but it's not like...

More because it's an important part of an adult relationships.

Yeah. Especially contemporary.

And it's like I... It is by no mean... I've read... Like I said, I've read much spicier stuff, but it's also not sweet or clean or however you prefer to describe that. I don't...

Yeah. That's not... It's so... It it is very difficult. I...

Because it all has... It's under the romance. And what what used to make me mad when I would only read it and dream about writing it was people were like, you're reading porn. And I was like, no. But today you are.

Like, now you... There are, like, a whole different section.

That's fine. You know? Yes. But it... It's interesting because, of course, one person's, like, race is another person's tame.

And so there's really no fair way to say...

No. It's really hard. I... So I decided to write closed door because I couldn't come up with all the ways. You know?

And I was like, I just don't wanna deal with that. But I have all the lead up. And so I I say closed door, and I got a review. It's like, this is closed door, but they're lusting. And I was like, well, I never said clean or religious.

That, like, it... What is love? Right? So you're just...

I don't know. Yeah. It... Well, and then marketing wise, you have to, like, over explain, which is, like, the number one sin of marketing.

No. And I actually had a... Or I still don't have, like, a trigger, like, list, like, I know a lot of people do, because I'm really, like, nothing like this. There's nothing taboo in my books. There's nothing there's nothing that I wouldn't let my, like, 15 or 16 year old read.

Right. Exactly. Because I was reading it.

Mom wrote it. Like

Yes. I have that too. Yes.

My 13 year old reads the dystopian ones where I'm sure there's things that I wouldn't be comfortable with, just because I... It bothers me personally, not because it bothers her.

Right. Yeah. I don't I don't love trigger list. I'm getting to the point where I'm like... Well, especially if you grew up in the eighties and nineties, and you just pulled whatever book was on the shelf because the libraries for most of us were tiny and they...

You had what you had. No one ever gave you a trigger warning.

Oh, and I mean, I grew up reading, oh my... First of all, tremendous number of Nora Roberts because that's what my grandmother and my dad read. And No way. And, you know, there's nothing... I mean, there's plenty of, like, mystery and suspense and, but there was nothing in those books that I never felt, like, stuck with me in, like, a depressing or or whatever kind of sense.

And... But then Harlequins are like Danielle Steele. I still can't read a Danielle Steele. They're, like, too hard for me. There's too much drama, and that's fine.

You know?

Yeah.

But, like, how do you... You never would have expected her her to put a list on there. It's like, you're gonna cry a baby dies or something like that.

Yeah. Or, like, Nicolas Cage. I stopped. Who else does that? Jodi Picoult.

After... I was like, lady, like I don't wanna feel sad and depressed after

I read books. I can't read it. It's too depressing. It's too depressing.

Yes. I know, but but it's like...

If somebody feels right to you and do it or not do it.

Right. Right. I think sometimes they... People who try to help us with marketing or whatever... Or, like, maybe readers, they're too much in the, like, online sphere and, like, all the rules that the online sphere makes.

And then you step out into just the regular world where people just want a good book, and you're like, okay. I don't need all these things.

And And I don't mind the whole different story because, of course, what people will tell you in person when you're sitting at a book signing, describing your book to them versus... Or what they're looking for versus, like, what someone's willing to tell you on Instagram It's completely different.

Okay. That is very true. So I had this lady come up to me and tell me, pick up one of my books and say, I hate when you guys have blurbs on the back. And I was like, well, I do know the new trend of, like... So I have two different sets, like, a blurb or, like, just the trend of, like, the, you know, sort of the tagline.

And so that I was telling the story, and another writer was like, oh my gosh. Should I do that? I was like, no. It's one person. You should do what you want to do.

Like, the amount of times people change, writers change their way because one or two people were like, oh, I like this. And no.

Well, it's like the tropes. Some people love seeing the list of tropes, and some people hate it. And they're like, you can't break down story to tropes. I'm like, look. I'm not trying.

I'm just giving you some tidbits. The whole story is not tropes anyway. That... They might be there. Yeah.

But it's like All I can tell you is please read it.

Yes. I know. I mean, basically, it's a story. It has a beginning, middle, and end.

I... And I I think it is helpful, and we can't do this as well as we used to, the whole, like, if you like this, you'll like this. Because that is a lot clearer to someone than just, oh, it's, you know, it's a military romance or it's a whatever romance. And if you're like, I don't know if I like that, but I like this book that did that. Maybe, like, my book as well or whatever.

Yeah. I've seen people get mad about that too now. I'm like, we can't win.

Yeah. Well, I'm... That's what I'm determined.

People love it. Seriously. So when did you when did you start writing, and then when did you start publishing?

So I I will say I am, I've been a freelance science journalist for twenty years. Okay.

Oh, wow. Okay.

But I and I, like, toyed with fiction. I kept saying I'm gonna write a book like you do and wrote five chapters and then stopped.

Mhmm.

And my... Because of my husband's job, we moved to TON and so it wasn't like being a freelancer worked out well for us. We have four kids. It gave me flexibility. But, like, my attention span is a little short because I'm interrupted a lot as someone with kids and pets and all that.

So, it wasn't until we moved, to a bigger property in a more rural area right before COVID. And my youngest started going to mean, after that after that period. So then I, like, started thinking more and more about, like, I've been... I was re... I was sort of rededicating myself as a reader at that point.

And I started listening to podcasts at that point too, which I had not really done before like yours. And, Heaving Bosoms and Fated Mates and some of these other ones that are sort of romance direct, and some craft ones. And, basically, I started thinking about, well, maybe I should really start focusing now because my youngest started going to preschool once things open back up. And when he went to kindergarten, I, like, actually buckled down and started writing. And part of that was my husband and I, I think just having that mental space, you know, a few hours that are just my Yes.

Mine. Yes. My husband, I went on... He had a work trip to, San Diego.

Nice.

While we were there, I'm an early bird, and I, like, woke up at three in the morning. And actually, this was a scene that I put in my my first novel, Three Descent Reasons to Stay. I woke up because I was hearing cadences, and I look out the window of the hotel, out onto the, like, Embarcadero, which is, the marina walkway. And there was a... And I don't know if they were navy or marines or who they were exactly running in in, like, formation and doing cadences loudly at three in the morning California time.

Only in San Diego. I love it. Like...

And I like my face is printed against the glass. You know, I was... And my husband woke up too. And, of course, I... In my head, all of a sudden, I was like, what would happen if you, like, tripped them and they, like, fell over you or something?

And my husband's like, they're not robots. They would, like, stop and help you up. I mean... So then I started thinking about this story of, like, well, who would that happen to them? Why would they be out there?

And, anyway, that sort of prompted, and then, it was NaNoWriMo at the time.

Right.

I I was like, you know what? I'm gonna... I have, like, this idea. I'm just gonna go with it. And I don't know where the rest of the book came from, exactly.

Although, it features a single mom, and so I think part of me with this, like, trying to deal with the whole... When you're overwhelmed with other people's needs all the time, how would... Love love and, like, give yourself,

like How would you even get love and, like, squeeze it in there?

That was like a 30 whatever years old with two kids. And so that's where that book began. I, and I was like, I just was trying to get to the end. I just want to prove to myself that I could write a book that like had actual arc. And then, you know, there was like a whole year long process of rewriting and finding an editor and then finding a different editor and rewriting...

No.

No. What happened to the first one?

It was fine. It just, I had worked with... And actually she's passed away, unfortunately. She had... But...

And she gave me some good feedback, and I pitched it. And I got... Had some interest, but nothing... Like, ultimately, it was too slow. Oh.

It's a slow pace.

Really?

This way... But then I I end up rewriting more of it. So so then I was like, well, I... And also I found the process of, like, the pitching and the... That to be pretty painful.

I'm very much an action person. Like, I don't wanna wait around for you to tell me I

suck. Okay? Yeah. Like, six months?

I can... I don't wanna hear about it six months from now. I just wanna know about it right now.

Yeah. Just tell me now....

Finding it now. Like, I wasn't in love with that. Which isn't to say I would never do it again now knowing what I do, but, like, it was my book baby. You know what I mean?

Yes, I do. You're reminding me a lot of my first book.

So I, I, I, you know, I knew that I had to work on it, but I wanted to hear from someone who I really respected. And so I ended up, reaching out to, Jen Prokop, who is a cohost of Fated Mates. She also development and utter. And so she took me on and I... We...

I already knew that I really respected her opinion in terms of like, we tend to like the same books. And she said... So, like, I didn't know her, but I knew enough. The first editor I had found on, and like I said, she was fine. Just, Jen and I now kept, worked on every book together and she's been wonderful.

And, she, she just helped me get change some of those things, to, to change, to get the story in a better place. And I of course have since then improved my pacing, I think, with every book I write, because as you do.

Yeah. But that's kind of what they're supposed to do. Like, teach you what you don't know because their job is a little different than our job. Like, that's what I... That's unfortunately what most editors miss or, like, this new world of, like, I finish the whole manuscript, send it off to someone I don't know, they give me an opinion.

But if they're professional enough, it's not just an opinion. It's, like, a professional lesson.

And a coach in a way.

Yeah. Yeah.

I'll have... Of course, the something delivery truck is here, which I...

I was like, is there a cow?

No. I'm here. My dog's barking and somebody told me that I'll let my

If you guys don't follow Jamie, you have to on her Instagram because I'm just fully expecting a cow to come in.

Yeah. I did close the door. So they Yeah. He will knock first. Oh, we do have sheep and, animals of all goats and a cat.

Yeah. Many

more legged things my husband would much rather me not.

But He... He's a good sport. My husband would never.

But, yeah, that I think that that having that coach sort of Yeah. To a degree and especially, again, the developmental part where it's that big picture. And my first concern with every book and every one that I write was even when I read them is, is this romance believable?

Yes. But I really

think these people belong together, or are these just two hot people who happen to be the same place at the same time?

Okay. Have you been reading the same books? I've been putting up. I'm like, what? What is this?

And I understand their their point of pacing, but at the same

time, a lot

of the unbelief comes from, like, no. Two days is not long enough to decide you're gonna marry him. Like, it's it's... I don't know. I think they misunderstand, like, pacing with, everything in the, like, world of the book has to go faster.

And

I think...... If it's gonna happen that fast, it's because it's someone you already knew.

Yeah. Yeah. You have a... Or you got a gun to your head.

Oh, exactly. It's like... Or there's something happening that's

Yeah.

Trauma bond, basically.

Right.

At the last past, you know, the... That trauma moment. So I I mean, I... There's certain things I can kinda wave away, be like, romance reasons are why this works.

No. Yeah. It... When you say, like, it's not believable, and somebody the other day was like, well, it's fiction. I was like, I'm well aware it's fiction.

But there's something about, and there's so many ways to do this wrong. Like, you know, I've been there with all my books and all the... Thankfully, I have good editors where they're just like, that, like, took me out of the story. That doesn't make sense. Or they...

You set up this character to not act like that. Or, like, why would they make that decision? That's part of the unbelievable that, you know, like, it's just not... It's like the writer didn't do it right. It's not that it's it's fantastical.

Like, I'm okay with fantastical or reading books about people living on Mars. Like, I don't care about that.

Systems or whatever. That's great. Like, yeah. I definitely have a a... I think that all of my books, like, because I tend to be very practical, there has to be a certain amount of, like, that level headed practical.

Like, well, obviously, this could this could happen. Like, could happen.

Right.

Yes. It's plausible.

So... Well, especially if you're writing, like, midlife people. I don't know if we call it midlife. Like, I like writing... Like, everyone wants thirties, forties.

You know, like, I know you want that.

It's a

lot harder sometimes because we're way more critical, way more practical. Like, we have, you know, this experience in life that makes us, like, not as naive.

Well... And, of course, if you're running contemporary, the pressure to wed is not what it is in, like, historicals, for example. Yeah. So you're taking that away. You're like, alright.

Well, why would this person really, really want... I mean, I... I'd like to think that most people wanna be bonded with someone anyway, but just there... There's there's the, like, the practical reasons why in a contemporary, things are a little harder.

Yes.

Oh, yeah. And they can text you all the time and you're like, some of those things make it a pain.

I know. I'm really, like, I keep considering moving everyone into the eighties, but then I kinda like some of them, like, moment, you know, the contemporary things. But, yeah, the mis communication trope in contemporary romance, that is one trope I think needs to be, like, dead. Like, buried eight feet under, not even just six. Because it doesn't make sense.

No. I mean, unless you're just... Unless you speak different emotional languages, and even then, like...

You better... Well, that's true, though. You could write a really good argument scene where people don't under... Like, literally... But the, like, oh, the the like, he didn't show up or so...

You know, like, he could text you or you could text him.

I mean, there's usually a reason or something could have happened the whole Right. Because I didn't

Right.

Yeah. Well, so we love eighties movies in our family and, you know, nineties movies. And often there's, like, I'll say to the kids, okay. You can't do this now. Like, this would never happen now in a movie, and here's why.

Just so you're aware, we all... We enjoy the the the vibe of the movie overall. Last night, we're watching the The Great Outdoors, which is a John Candy movie. And one of the things that happens, and his, like, teenage son is supposed to meet this girl that he really likes, and he... They get hung up at the restaurant because it's 1980 whatever.

He doesn't call her, so then she won't speak to him for the rest of the movie because she which was perfectly... I'm like, yeah. That's the

Yeah. And that actually has happened to me as a child. Like, why didn't you just show up? Yeah. There weren't just phones everywhere.

Yeah. It it takes a lot more... I don't know if it takes a lot more thought, but it does take some thought. And I have picked up a few books lately. I've been grousing about it all summer of, like, this was a great premise.

You didn't take the time to think everything through. And I'm so sad because it was a great premise. But, like, none of this makes sense because that's not how that would work. Like someone time...

You you say you didn't take the time. I know I am the writer. We all feel a certain amount of pressure to do the case, or maybe your beta reader misses it and you miss it, and then you're like, oh, well, I'm not gonna fix it now. It's too late to the process. And, like, I get that as a thing.

But you do... You might lose readers because of it. It's hard not to feel the pressure of speed.

Yes. It

is. That's actually something that I wish that I had taken more time. I wish I'd taken more time and held back trying to publish, putting up my... The first two books. I wish I'd had my next one written.

You know what I mean? Like, all the things you know in hindsight.

I know. Well, even with my... What? Fourth and fifth, like, they were a little duet, and I just kept pushing myself. And, yeah, I mean, two years later, I'm like, I should've taken a breath.

You know? But you feel like everyone else is getting their books out and you have to, and there's all this talk of, you know, getting it at, like, the rapid release. I'm glad that that's kind of going away because I don't... I think it hasn't done what it should have done. Like, there are people who just have this talent to be able to write, and it's after COVID.

So it's not 2015 where you can just publish and not do a lot of marketing, and Kindle readers are just so desperate for books that they're going to read. So many things have changed. And I wish I had even, even though I'm doing the podcast every week and like talking to people, I still felt that pressure too. Yeah. But I, I hope that people stop doing that because it doesn't, it doesn't make the best book, you know?

No. Although, although you said, like, some people really do have a gift for that. Yeah.

Yeah. I am Vida.

One of those people. I'm, much more, I'm not gonna say disorganized because I'm not really, but it's just I have too many other things going on that, like, occupy my brain. And, also, I've... And this is something that in the past six months I've really been trying to grapple with is I like to write every day even if it's only a 100 words just because it keeps me in the habit the same way I do my Duolingo every day.

Yeah. Except that you don't get a fun owl.

But it's just... It's... It has more to do with the habit of it than... So I feel like I'm still in it versus, like like, when you take a vacation and don't... When I don't exercise or something for a week, and I'm like, I feel awful.

Yeah. It... I think it's the in it part. Yeah. Like, you can keep your head...

Because you have four humans dependent on you and probably a fifth one who's older. And I have three humans. I exchanged one out and haven't exchanged it at plus the... Like, you're... I always tell people, like, my first job is making sure this doesn't burn down and people get fed.

And, like, even as you're trying... So, like, with my first book, I was obsessed with it, but they were smaller. And I did allow my... Like, I didn't feel the pressure to finish it. You know?

I mean, yes, but no. You know? Like, it was like, I'm gonna finish it, but I don't know what I'm doing. You know? Eventually, I hunkered down.

But now it's like, well, I'm also ten years older, so I'm like, what was I writing? Like, if I take a week off, I have to go back and, like, read everything. It's bad.

Well, I've been doing... I'm sort of like a... I'm sorry. But so I have been reading a lot more about, like, the science of creativity and how we're getting to flow and all that stuff and how I can write faster if I don't reread what I've been writing, if I just brain dump. And not all of it's amazing, and I...

But I have to resist that sort of critic because the critic slows me down. If I'm I know. Trying to get volume words on the page. Yeah. Obviously, there's a place for the editing, rereading, particular part.

But, like, when I'm... Right now, I'm, I've been writing actually more often lately in plotter. I'm another plotter.

Oh, do you like it?

I do like it because sometimes I'll resist writing because I know that I'm at the scene that is difficult.

Yeah. That's a real thing.

I'm not gonna do that scene today. I'm gonna go to this one and have my fun little rain dump over here and not not lose it in Word.

Yeah.

I'm probably in there later when I actually get sequentially get there. But, like, just to sort of keep... Again, to keep the wheels turning. Yeah. Like, force my way through the the tough stuff.

But at least then you have that sensation of I'm still moving forward. I'm looking at progress.

Yeah. But I think that sometimes, like, I think at first we feel the pressure to be sub sub... Sequential. Like, how do I say that word? Sequential writers where you're like, this happens.

I need to get, like, how things are happening. But sometimes I have found I need the scene that feels more fun to me, like the makeup or the whatever, to see what they're gonna do in order to figure out how difficult that one scene is gonna be. Like, you know, my brain needs, like, that hop over to come back and be like, oh, yeah. I can do this.

Well... And, whoops. It was an interview I was listening to, and he's a screenwriter. And and, I think it was on the spa girls recently. So...

And he was talking about how sometimes when they shoot a movie, they shoot the last scene first.

Really?

Like, if you had to do a rewrite, you're rewriting the last scene before you go back to fix the other stuff. And it was... I was like, that's a great... Because so I... Then I ended up going to write...

I wrote the the dark moment breakup scene that day because it was... I was like, if I'm grappling with this over here with what this character's motivation is, but I know ultimately it has to do with this one particular wound, I can still write that scene. And maybe I'll delete some things just because of, like, what happened and whatever. But it... As you said, it's...

Sometimes it's easier to get there

because... Yeah. I agree. In fact, I I have written the last scene before, like, even the last one, like, getting that down. But I think every time I actually end up changing it, but it's still the same arrival, you know?

So, like, yeah, you still change whatever. But it's still the the vibe is the same. So it helped me get there, whatever. I think it does help, and new writers might not know that.

Yeah. And then, of course, too. Like, when I write a... Start a new book, a brand new idea, I do usually start at the beginning. But I also know that those first three chapters I write are usually garbage because usually it's me working through something, not what actually needs to happen.

Amen. Can you

say that again? More times just because I'm like, is this the right place to start?

Yes. Be willing to toss that. I just realized... Because I... Of course, I...

I'm always working on, like, three things at once because I usually get an idea while washing dishes. But I just realized, like, I have to let go of this first scene with this book because... Just because I like it. Like, it's just not... That's what's...

It's just not working. And it was the first scene, and it's it's a really cute scene. And I just... You know, you just like it, but it's your darling. And you're just like, just get rid of it, and you'll feel free.

The possessive or, like, be careful with the words now on book five. And I did on book one. Now I did... I'm like, book one. And even now I rebooked that book, and I...

I'm very proud of it. I think it's a solid book. But I read now... I read parts of that now and go, I should have done something different here. Like, this is not as amusing as I thought it was or whatever.

I'm sure it's fine. Like, I think we're... We are our worst critics.

Sabbath is so awful.

Yeah. Yeah. Somebody asked me the other day if my... Like, I'm a Sarah j Maas fan. Are your books as, plot twisty as hers?

And I was like, we're on different mountains. So I think, like, don't expect. So I was like, and, you know, you can't, like... I... I understand that feeling, like, you like this, you love this, book or this series or whatever, but you just...

You can't... I I don't know how to compare the two.

When someone has read mostly of one particular genre or, like, if a romance reader who was open to reading contemporary, I don't know that I would recommend my book my book as the, like,

Yeah. Power outages aside, what would you tell a romantic y reader?

No. I mean, I I think that what... I end up asking a lot like, well, what is it you like about it? Is it the part, like, it's really in a different world that's fake, or is it more like you like the feeling you get of x? Because sometimes contemporary fine if it's got a book that's gonna give you that feeling.

But if it's just, you know, I love that, like, you can kill this guy over here because he's bad and no one's gonna get mad at you for it. Nah. That's true. That doesn't happen in its good temper very often. Maybe mafia, you can kinda get away with it.

But I... That's in some ways mafia, like, mirrors, like, some historicals

Yes.

Theme. And so I don't know that I would recommend my books to a content... To a romantic reader, and I don't know if they would look for them anyway, unless they were someone who what did, you know, reads her more broadly.

Yeah. I don't understand people who only read one genre. I have a hard time. I'm always like, do you like nineteen nineties rom coms? Okay.

Then you will like my work.

But... And then if that... Like, I don't know if that's even accurate. I'm just... When you when you...

How... You when you're in the bottle, you can't see the label.

Yes.

Like, I... I'm not actually sure that's how other people describe my books, but I'm like, that's where I'm going for. Is that, like, just the sort of realist people that you know, but better look and...

Better abs. Yes. Whatnot. I've never dared to write a guy that doesn't have a really nice physique. Because it's like, okay.

That that is where you have to suspend, you know, the realistic versus fiction. Because it's like, it's a female mostly reading these, and we want to pretend they're all... They never let go. I mean, if someone is a romance genre reader,

to a degree, they're gonna suspend belief anyway. Right? Because we know there aren't 10,000 dukes or there aren't that many...

And there's like five in their 90.

Yeah. I mean, there's whole genres that rely on you suspending your disbelief to a point. Yes. So...

So how, how does the military come into play with your books? Because I've... You have a lot of art. I don't know if all of them have military characters. Do all of them?

This series is. And I will say I intend that... Like, when I wrote this for that first book, I didn't know it was gonna be a series that became one. So my husband was in the Marines. He is been out quite a while now, but that's was, you know, an important part of our life.

And then, I I don't know if it was just, again, that idea I happened to see in California that time, which prompted the, like, military angle of it. Okay. Right. And then, you know, I think in some part of being needed to deal with stuff probably, that I hadn't really thought about. And then I and I noticed that's particularly true actually with my Christmas to Bella where that he's deployed.

And again, like the realize you need to to say something about after you're something. And again, it was a long time ago, but it's continuing. And I like the idea. I think it's important to me in all my books to show people growing from past experience. Right?

From whether it's, like, the thing that happened to you that has kept you from being brave in this one way and, like, figuring out how to make that change.

Mhmm.

And transitioning, like, in that first book, the the male character Ryan is... He's transitioning out of the military, and that's, like, a hard transition, actually.

Yeah.

And just recognizing people in different stages of their lives and, like, how, you know, we never really get done with wanting approval from our parents, and we never really get done because so many things are never really done. You're never taking care of yourself. And so fitness sort of factors in as an important piece to some of these people's journey. So I... Yeah.

So I I did not intentionally think... Start out going, I'm gonna write a series that's a military contemporary romance. Okay. That's what that turned into. And I I...

My husband is kind and he, is my alpha reader, so he can make Nice. Everything that these guys say. Although, my newest one actually is a female marine. So, I

did notice that. I was like, oh, she brought in a female.

Yeah. But you you

you weren't in the military?

I was not. Okay. Yeah.

The... You lived on base and you know?

No. Actually, but, we... My husband joined the marines, three days before 09:11.

Oh my gosh. That's really bad or good timing, I guess, depending on how you see. Did you know him?

Yeah. So we we... Are you high school sweethearts? No. We were in college together.

Okay. College sweethearts? Yeah. And, so we were together when he deployed and and all the training and and years.

That's a scary time to know someone though.

Yeah. Yes. It was.

As a marine too. It's not like he's like a linguist in the office listening to stuff.

Right. No. He was a machine gutter.

So... Okay. Well, yeah. My brother-in-law was a tank division commander. I was like, of all the things, like, go be a doctor somewhere.

I mean, we won't have to worry about you.

You know, I I also think, you know, one of the things when you're a spouse of someone in the military, at least in our relationship, he very much recognizes that it's not like a clean path. Like, you're not like... Everything you do is not always what feels like the right thing to do even though you might because you felt like it was the right thing to do. And and so the... That, like, push pull of following orders and not always believing them or doing these...

So these are all, like, parts that I like to deal with, with a bunch of my characters. And and then, actually, the newest one that's gonna be, February. He's getting a medical discharge that he doesn't want. But

Yeah.

And it... He's got... Gets meningococcal meningitis and he goes deaf on one side, which means he's basically useless in a military situation. And I lived through that experience myself. So just...

I think I enjoy... Maybe enjoy is the wrong word. I need to sometimes write the challenging thing that I know about and I know that other people know about. And so, anyway, I think... I hope that people...

And then I want people to laugh and, you know...

Yeah. Of course. And feel stuff. But I think the military gives that... At least in the contemporary world, it gives you that ability to to have some really brisk changes, you know, that makes sense.

So, like, him having to leave or her having to leave, like, that makes sense instead of, like, it's a business trip except that he's in Indiana, so he can still call. You know, like, it... Or, like, being discharged when you don't want to. Like, that's a little bit different than being fired. You know?

So... But psychologically, that's where it gets really fun. It's like, how how do you write some... Like, how do you love someone well when they're, like, in a lot of pain? You know, like, mentally.

Right. And when they're and when their life doesn't belong to them in some ways. Right. Right. So...

This is all I know. This is what I'm good at. What what What? Like, this isn't fair. Like, that...

That's a lot of... I find that very fun. And, like, the point of writing of, like, trying to figure out why people do the things they do and, like, why... What would I react or how would these people react? And I think that is that that is probably what I mean when I say, like, people...

Writers aren't thinking it through as much. It's like, oh, we give them a disability, and it's almost like a throw up. You know, like, oh, well, she's deaf in in one ear. And it's like... But it never hit...

Like, it's part of the story, whereas, like, that sounds like it's exactly part of his story in his struggle.

Part of his story because, of course, he's broken, but you can't see it. But he's also not really that broken because he's still a smart, successful human. Right? But that doesn't mean you don't feel like you're somehow less than you were or just being any... People don't like change.

No.

When you weren't planning on it yet, like I... Right. So, it's been fun to write. And I like to, I'm also looking forward to doing something a little different. I think that I probably always, or almost always end up having a veteran in my books.

Just cause I have many of them in my life and...

They are everywhere.

And that does give you a particular viewpoint. Mhmm. Or at least a certain shared experience. Right? And shared experiences where we get a lot of the sort of the feelings.

So...

Yeah. And I I do like bringing it back. I mean, I'm a big veteran family. My husband and I and my sister, I think, are the only ones who didn't say... You know, there's lots and lots, and he works for a company where they have the best stories.

Like, they did they did very cool things. So I'm like, oh, tell me more about what you did. But but it's interesting how many people spent at least four years doing that in America, especially, and, like, how it should be normalized. It should... It's part...

You probably walk outside. If you would actually talk to your neighbors, you'd probably find one or two veterans on your street. You know?

Yeah. Absolutely.

So how did you... So preschool in COVID,

Mhmm.

But you had... So kindergarten. I guess that's a full day. Right? Is that kindergarten goes at least four hours?

So that was your first time to actually sit down, I mean, and just write, except that you still have to, like, feed them and laundry.

I mean... Yeah. I mean, there's the outdoor stuff. There's the being social coordinated for four and a half people. Yes.

What? They wanna do sports and stuff and, like, have their own lives?

Exactly. Like, for sleepovers and all the things.

And, like, I'm so excited to have all these things at it for you, right, when I need to write this chapter. So how did you figure out writing? Like, you said at least a 100 words a day. Is that is that kinda where you started?

Yeah. I mean, I go through phases. So when I wrote that book, I little... I sat down for, like, hours at a time. Mhmm.

And I do... I think I was aiming for a thousand or 1,500 words a day, because of it. Again, it was... That first one was data. Right?

Now I try aiming for fifth... For a thousand words a day, and

if I

get more than that, that's wonderful. And if I only get a 100, that counts. Obviously, again, with I've been trying to play more lately because summer is hard. Like, I don't wanna sit at my desk not in the sun. I don't wanna, like, hide from my family.

So what I started doing a little bit more of is trying to write 250 words or so on my phone or wherever four times a day. Oh. Takes fifteen to twenty minutes. Yeah. They noticed this because I was hiding in the laundry room.

You know?

Yeah. Yeah.

Or it was when I was waiting for the kid to come out of the pool or whatever.

It's that waiting time.

Yeah. And... It's a killer.... Do less of is I'm... I used to listen to music or and on podcast when I was doing chores and stuff like that.

And I still do, but I really have cut down on my input in my ears, in an effort to let my brain cycle through stuff that I've been working on. So that helps to me faster in the moment. And and I've been trying to dictate... That I have sort of mixed results with because I could... Like, if I...

The other day, I had to drive two hours south to do something. I dictated 3,000 plus words, but I know a lot of that junk.

I dictate more brainstorms.

Or... And it was a whole scene. It was two point of view and all this stuff. But, like, I... I'm sure I...

The editing of my dictation is some people do it really clean. I am not there yet.

I'm not either. But I I think for me, I really like the whisper app. I don't know if you know that one because it actually emails it to you. Oh. It's called.

Do you have a iPhone?

Mail up and dictate email sent to myself.

I know. I mean, that sometimes works. Whisper memos, it's called. But I find my Gmail doesn't pick up half the time. And this, I can actually have, like, on the console, and it will still pick it up.

And then it emails it to you. So, you know, there's no chance of, like, accidentally deleting. Not that I've ever done that before. You know? Like...

But I think for me, I do more, like, I started as a brain dump. And then I might, you know, think of some dialogue that I think should go there or whatever. But but for me, it's it's more about, like, staying in it and at least doing something if I have to. But I too, like, I'll... I input a lot less.

And I was like, oh my gosh. I haven't listened to music in a long time. It is... And I have to figure out a balance here. But, yeah, my brain doesn't work otherwise.

And, like, the scrolling, I don't know how people are, like, do 50 TikTok videos a day because my brain doesn't work after that. It, like, it just does... I can't go back to it.

Yeah. I struggle. I'm not someone who naturally uses, social media anyway. I find it overwhelming and distracting at the same time.

And boring now. It's so boring. It's all ads.

And I know that they're not there for me. That algorithm is not there to serve me. It's there to serve, essentially, which I get. I mean, I've put ads on before too. Yeah.

And I'm... You know, so what... So then I'm asking myself, what serves me and my time the best? And, you know, exercising, making sure I do that, I am always more... I have...

I write better on days when I exercise. I've... And if I don't... If I get myself the... To just the scene that is...

That that little bit of dialogue I came up with last night, if I write the scene around that, that comes away faster. I can write a thousand words in an hour that way, which is not as fast as... But, like, I can do that if I allow my my brain to go in that direction. And just the drafting process, like, I think it might look different for every book and depending on what's going on in your life. I don't...

I like to sit at my desk and putter, but if I'm not careful, I will get sucked into email for two hours a day.

Yes. Because it feels like you're doing something. I was listening to someone the other day, and they're like, all the things that feel like you are being productive. And I was like, oh, I feel like they're listening, like, in on me, like, looking at me, and that's so true. And I've...

I really had to cut down. So, like, what I really want to do is write it out, but then you have to be realistic. You do have to do some sort of marketing. Otherwise, you're just, like, putting a book out there with the other million, you know? So, like, figuring out that balance is...

I think will be a constant.

Yeah. And I very much believe in, like, doing little experiments. Okay. If you post every single day for a month and you feel like that has wrung out the rest of your creative energy, then then don't do it.

Yeah. Good advice. Yeah.

I I do post nearly every day, but but I did... I decided that it was too much for me. And I actually hired, a PA who does... She creates just graphics and I post them and do all that stuff. Three days a week, she gives me content based on my books and where she's pull quotes for me and stuff like that because I felt like an idiot pulling my own quotes.

I, like, didn't... Couldn't figure out what was gonna work. I don't know. And I'm not even sure it's helped, but she has mentally unloaded that for me. Yeah.

So I... I'm like, I love it. Corey at... Or a romantic movie, she's wonderful. But the the, like, okay.

If I notice about myself that I work better when I've when I've exercised or if I notice about myself that I work better, if I've planned the meals for the week and done the grocery shopping list and all the things, so I'm not at two o'clock going, what am I making for dinner tonight? I should, like... You know what I mean? That, like, sort of...

Because it's a great way to procrastinate.

And just like, oh, maybe I'll just read this email from this other romance author whom I love. But you know what? I could just set aside ten minutes to do that on a Saturday and report... And then...

But I'm learning, Jamie. I'm learning from their email. Yes. This is... Oh, I'm sorry.

Yes. This is the... Probably maybe the mom brain or something and just, like, getting getting things done. But now... So, like, by the time this comes out, we're mid October and we're thinking along the lines of Christmas almost.

And I... This year, I'm trying ads, like, just Facebook ads. I'm very... Being very... I'm trying to be more...

I I call it manly and strategic because I am very low in strategy. Although, obviously, lots of women are too... Are, like, high in strategy. I'm... It's, like, my lowest strength.

It's literally... I'm like, I'd be a great soldier. I have no idea where things are going. You know? Like,

let's just go that way.

Good thing I didn't sign up. But I think that the this is the time of year where you're like, I have all these thoughts and I need to do that. And now I feel a really big pull to try to be on social media and try to do all the things. I would not recommend doing ads now if you haven't ever done them before. They're gonna get very expensive, you know, but you feel that pressure.

Right? Like, all of a sudden, I want to do these 500 things plus make all the Christmas cookies or the Halloween, you know, costume or whatever it is, and things can get really difficult. So what do you do for yourself in that season? How do you... Or, like, what have you done?

I know... I honestly think that moms change it every year because we like every year is different, but have you seen anything that works for you?

Well, I've seen what doesn't, and I Okay.

That might be the best way to I booked

a book in November once. That was... And then and then and then in January, that was the first two. And that was probably a mistake. I mean, I I...

Again, I... It was a full on mistake and not because of the timing so much as the, like, it was too close together. I didn't know what I was doing. I didn't do them justice. Whatever.

I learned from it. Yes.

We learned from everything. Yeah. Also,

I... Like, it's really important. Again, I've said it before a few times, but, like, the... Be realistic with yourself about... I love Christmas.

I love making cookies, but do my kids care if I make 20 kinds of cookies or do they want me to make the five that they really like? You know? When we... You know, my husband has work, like, Christmas party, do I have to host it or do I just, like... Or or...

You know what I mean? Do I have to cater? Do I get Costco or whatever, like, to do it? It's... Obviously, there's, like, you have to balance it with finances, time, and all this other stuff.

But what's gonna give me the satisfaction that I want and the, and is it is it writing or is it writing coming down... Dropping down a a rung? And the the, like, 200 words I write at night on my phone when I'm laying in bed, is that gonna be good enough for right now? Or is reading, like, my two top, maybe... I don't wanna say competitors, but you know what I mean?

The cops and, like, your your, like, is reading those books and, like, figuring out what those people did well and maybe what you don't... Like, maybe that's your focus for a couple of weeks. It's just reading Yeah. Few books and not even writing. So, yeah, it changes.

I I love to do... I'm someone who... I'm annoying in that. I really like to know how to do many things.

Yes.

And, I would like to know how things work, and I like asking questions. And, actually, my husband says I would have been terrible in the military because he's like, yeah. Because you have to take people who are dumber than you, and you would have been all like, no. I'm smarter than you, and explain to me why this

is a choice you made. This doesn't make sense. Let me tell you.

So... But, I mean, yeah, I think that the it's hard because it's easy to get tired. And when you're talking, make the same choices that you might make if you're fresh. Right? Yeah.

So it's not like a right answer. But, I mean, I think if you try, especially ahead of time... And I'm talking, like, in November. Think Right. What's important to me about the next month?

Is it because I have to meet these newsletter... You know, I have to write a newsletter every week? Or is it that I have to finish the book? Like... And and how much time do I have realistically with all the work parties or the kids' functions Yeah.

Concerts and whatever it is.

Yeah.

And, like, how... If I... Could I leave December and feel like a human and stick with it even a little bit?

Yeah.

Sometimes good enough is good enough.

Because it... I mean, I think you hit especially the tired. Like, if you're tired... Because I used to I used to be like, oh, but once the kids go to bed, I'm gonna write. And then I'd be like, you know, like, you're not actually going to get anything done.

That's a hard adjustment to think, okay, if you're tired... But also, if by now, like mid October, if you're not done and have that book polished with a cover already and a blurb ready to go and you're already pre ordering it, it's too late for Christmas. Like, I think that's actually a hard truth for... Especially if somebody is listening who's newer to it. Don't bring your book out.

Give yourself grace.

Give yourself the... Yeah. And and think about maybe if if there's a book like, like yours and watch how they do it. Do they, you know... Did they release...

Did they start doing teasers in, like, October? Did they run ads in November? Did they have the audiobook out as well? That's something else that I'm working on, like, learning and doing. And is it...

You know, what... What's working well for them? I mean, like, I don't think that you have to use influencers and things like that. I have done a little of that and seen sort of mixed result. I think that's...

Yeah. Both social media and, you know, the the... It's saturated, and the market is saturated. Right? Right.

Be realistic if your if your entire income is not continued on this book.

Which I really hope it's not.

No. And try and emulate that

Yeah.

Way that works for you.

Yeah. Yeah. No. That's... That is good advice.

Built my like base a little more, you know, in my knowledge, maybe, a little more thoroughly. And I I... Whatever. Like, it's water under the bridge now. My book, reasons to, risk.

I feel like I can't remember my own title. I like I, like, basically didn't do a launch. I was, like, so paranoid about getting it out at the time that I had told my newsletter subscribers I would do it. I, like, didn't do any of the things to tell anyone about it. And now I'm still paying the price just...

It reboots much more slowly, and it's not the first book in a series, so people don't... Should pick it up first. And that's fine. Like, it is a better book than the first book in my opinion. But

Right.

It it... There's... Yeah. It just... If you're mom, parent, caregiver, your brain is already emotionally tied off somewhere else most of the time.

So you're like...

So true.

You're... If you have to be careful with yourself. And also not like like, when I say sometimes it's easy to to say, I don't know, this won't work out alright instead. But then I deteriorate, like, like mentally, physically. And and so Yeah.

It's not that you're going easy on yourself, it's that you're being stick and making...

Yeah. Yeah. I... Yeah....

Famous for making... Putting putting 20 things on a list when I only have time for three.

Yes. Absolutely. So as we say realistic, we're like, yeah. Take one off now.

I'm terrible about that.

Yes. But I think it's good for us to constantly remind ourselves of that. But I I think, like, people can learn... I mean, you you can learn from your mistakes. I learn from my mistakes.

Like, I brought books out much faster because kind of the same thing. I feel obligated to do what I said I would do to literally point 00001% of, like, even this population. You know? It's like, I don't know. Air.

Like... Yeah. No. But they don't actually care. They...

And I don't mean that harshly. It just means it doesn't change their life, but it could have changed mine if I would have just been, like, take a breath. It doesn't. Right? So if anyone's listening, like, yes.

Definitely. I mean, I understand that energy that, like, desire to get things done and get them out there. But, yeah. I mean, if if anyone was gonna try, I would finish at least three books in a series before... While promoting the first.

You know? Like, that is the the actual good business decision to make.

Yeah. Yep. Yes.

But we can all keep moving forward even when we don't do that.

That's the other thing that I really like to harp on is that if you think that you don't have time to be a writer, you absolutely do. It's the same re... I get by... Get on people all the time, but you absolutely have time to exercise. Yeah.

It looks different for everyone. Writing looks different for everyone. Maybe you're writing in a notebook for five minutes before you go to bed every night. Maybe you're doing 10 push ups every morning when you wake up. That still counts.

And that's where my, like, breaking up... Yeah. Maybe my... I do wanna write a thousand or 4,000 a work day, whatever it is. If you break it up, it's a lot more manageable.

The whole eating elephant one bite at a time, you know? Yeah. Just don't don't be so hard on yourself. Give it... Make it doable.

Yes. No. I love that. That breaking it up. I'm actually gonna try that, which it kinda happens anyway.

But but doing it on purpose would be less frustrating.

I would go out. So I had to stop what I was doing. Yeah.

Yes. No. I like that. I like that. Because I do think a lot...

I struggled a lot of years of, like, a true writer sits down for hours. And, like, just like you with my first one, that's... I had a baby, you know, so, like, okay. Nap time. I can do this.

But then I got stuck in that, whereas, like, I would get frustrated if I couldn't. Like, okay. That's why I always tell people, great. Read Stephen King's book if you want, but quite frankly, he's not a woman and he's not a mom. So...

I I enjoyed on writing, but it's not because I take everything to heart as, like, the way you have to.

Right. No. You can't. You gotta you gotta adjust to your to your life. So...

I think I spent a lot of years telling myself I should be writing something else. Like, instead of writing romance, I should be writing something more.

More seriously?

That That would make sense based on my other work. I should be writing my... I don't know. Something more thoughtful. And then I was like, this is dumb.

Yeah. Right? To read, which is books with a happy ending. Okay? Yes.

And what I tell her, like, love is literally the, like, cornerstone of life. So Yeah. You know what?

Give me a break. Exactly.

Exactly. So you have another one coming out in February, but until then, from this point for... Like, until February, people have quite a few books that they can catch up on with you. And I hear rumors that you are gonna do a sports series next.

Oh, I have a baseball series that I have started, and I, have gotten... I've got the first book not done. It's it's done in that my editor has given it back to me. I have not looked at it yet because I'm still working on this other book, and I'm like, don't have the emotional fortitude.

I don't want all the red right now.

So I've finished this draft, and I'm gonna give her that one, and I'll try over the first.

Okay. So you're gonna go into the sports.

Yes. I mean... And I, you know, I love baseball. I was an athlete, growing up. I'm not an avid fan in the sense that I don't, like, follow how any team is doing, but I, I grew up in New England.

Red Sox had, like, a deep history here. I... You know, you do the tour of the stadium. It's... It has a particular feeling, and I think that with the sort of, like, New England vibe was fun to go into having done a lot of San Diego books, whereas it's not where I live, but a place I enjoy very much in and love to visit.

But it's it's... Yeah. It's kinda nice to be like, oh, you know, I can make... Make models after the place down the street or I can Yeah. Whatever because, this is like my...

Where I grew up. And, it's just... Yeah. It's fun to be different and to and to throw a sports in there because who... I mean, who who doesn't love to

They're popular.

Obama.

Yeah. I mean, again, women really like kind of that, like, a man who's taking care of himself. They gotta do stuff. Right? So so we can expect the first one of that one next year sometime?

Yeah. I mean, I'm aiming for, May.

Okay. So in the meantime, can people get on your newsletter or is it better to social media or what?

Whatever you prefer. I... My newsletter is, inconsistent, but act I... It is... I'm there.

Active. Active. I use some... Like, I'll... I was, I was doing very well at doing it twice a month, and then August completely.

Just... I lost August. Yeah. So... But, and actually, if you subscribe to my newsletter, then, you can also get bonus chapters of all of my books and, free e...

Of my first book, The Christmas Devella. So... Awesome.

Well, I mean, which is exactly what everyone needs to read right now as this podcast goes out because it's about to be the season.

Yes. So that... That's a that's a really sweet

Alright. So we're gonna have the links in the show notes for everyone to do, but thank you, Jamie, for coming on. It was fun to talk to you.

Thank you. I enjoy myself immensely.